The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 053 Robert Green

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW
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EPISODE #53: ROBERT GREENE
On this episode, Sandra and Travis had an interesting and informative talk with best-selling author and
successful entrepreneur Robert Greene. Robert has authored multiple best-sellers namely the 48 Laws
of Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33 Strategies of War, The 50th Law, and then his most recent,
Mastery, which is, has been referred to and discussed on this episode.
In their talk, Travis and Sandra asked Robert on various aspects of how entrepreneurs can reach their
full potential by achieving mastery within their business. Aside from that, having a successful mentor
and role model and learning from them can greatly gain you valuable experience and save you the time
and effort on your road to success. Robert points out that keeping an open mind and utilizing failures as
a fuel to keep your passion and desire burning would definitely propel you into being the successful
entrepreneur that we all aspire to become.
Robert Greene- Using Mastery
to have incredible success AND grow your business
Travis: Hey, it's Travis Lane Jenkins.
Sandra: And this is Sandra Champlain.
Travis: Welcome to episode number 53 of the Entrepreneur's Radio Show Sandra.
Sandra: Well thank you Travis. Glad to be here.
Travis: How are you?
Sandra: Great.
Travis: Super excited today.
Sandra: Me too.
Travis: Can I tell you why?
Sandra: Yup.
Travis: Robert Greene, we just finished his interview and now we're doing the intro to the show and I
got to tell you this guy is genius, don't you agree?

Sandra: Oh yeah, he's a New York Times bestselling author and has five books.
Travis: Yeah. Hey, before we get started I want to remind you to be sure and stay with us until the very
end if you can. We'd like to share a little inspiration with you, and we'll also reveal who we're going to
connect you with in the next episode, right?
Sandra: Right.
Travis: One quick reminder. Do you want to give them the reminder?
Sandra: No.
Travis: If you enjoy these free podcast that we create for you, we'd really appreciate it if you'd go to
DIYOB.com, which is short for Diamonds in Your Own Backyard, DIYOB.com. Click on the iTunes icon,
and then post a comment and rate the show. This would help us reach, instruct, and inspire more great
entrepreneurs just like yourself with each and every guest we bring on, right Sandra.
Sandra: Well that was kind of rude of me to say no but, as we'll find out in this upcoming episode, by
following our passions we can really succeed and Travis you give them that tip for the end of the show
and how to connect with us is your passion.
Travis: That's right.
Sandra: So, I'll be not doing you a good service by not letting you do that, so...
Travis: Listen.
Sandra: It's all about you.
Travis: Thank you.
Sandra: You’re welcome.
Travis: I'm going to tell you, our guest today, Robert Greene. Robert is the author of a brilliant book
titled Mastery, which is a personal favorite of mine. Now he's also a 4-time international best seller. He
wrote the 48 Laws--do you know the four books that he wrote Sandra?
Sandra: I do, he's got the 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33 Strategies of War, The 50th
Law, and then his most recent book is called Mastery.
Travis: Right. So, believe this when we say, you will want to take as much of this--the wisdom and the
perspective from Robert as you possibly can and apply it to your business. Robert is absolutely brilliant.

Sandra: Yeah, and just a little bit, really honing in on your passion for success, power, and how to be a
master at what you're up to and there's some really enlightening things that I had not heard before. So
I'm awfully excited into using his tips in my life and my business.
Travis: I have to tell you that my successes in business completely align with that he talks about,
Mastery, or how he explains mastery. And so for the purpose of illuminating the pathway for you, our
listener, so that you can take your business to that next level as quickly as possible, I'm going to try to
draw as many parallels with what I've done and where I found successes in multiple businesses, so
that we can drive that point home with you.
Sandra: Hey, you know what, I think we should stop talking and let's get on with the show.
Travis: Let's do that. So without further ado, welcome to the show Robert.
Robert: Oh, thank you so much for having me Travis, my pleasure.
Travis: We're super excited to have you here. Sandra you want to jump in before...
Sandra: Oh, I'm not too sure what to say, I'm excited. Robert is a fellow author and I just, really excited
to hear your words of wisdom.
Travis: Yeah.
Sandra: So welcome.
Robert: Well, thank you, thank you for having me.
Travis: Yeah, Robert, before we get into some of the incredible wisdom that you share and what I, is
one of my favorite books, Mastery, which I feel speaks directly to the entrepreneur. Can you give us the
back-story of how you got started in business and what brought you to the level of success that you've
achieved?
Robert: Well, I'm a writer by profession, that's how I make a living although I also do consulting and I
serve on the board of directors of a publicly traded company, American Apparel. But mostly I make my
living as a writer, I've been writing my whole life, I knew when I was about 8 or 9 that that was sort of
what I was meant to do. But I started off in journalism, got trained there but didn't really like the fact that
nothing I wrote really lasted very long, everything just changed every week and I wanted to create
something that just endured, that had more stability, or...
And then I tried my hand at Hollywood and screen writing and then a few other things. I just couldn't
find the right fit for me. And then I happened upon books and about 15-16 years ago I met a man who
packages books and he asked me if I had any ideas for a book, and all of my life experience in so many

different jobs, observing people, and the political dynamics and offices and everything, and all of my
reading of history, it just sort of in that moment I improvised an idea that turned into the 48 Laws of
Power, and he subsequently paid me to live while wrote my first book. That was sort of my turning point
and I haven't looked back since. And Mastery itself was just my fifth book. It's sort of the culmination of
all of the other books and all of my experience in life. Sort of studying what makes people powerful and
successful and I really--it was kind of almost a mission I had, I really wanted to debunk the idea that
people are born that way, it's just not true, none of the evidence shows that, and my years of research
show that's actually the opposite. People are made; they make themselves successful through a
process that I describe in great detail in Mastery. So that was sort of the germination of my latest book
and my career as a writer.
Travis: Go ahead Sandra.
Sandra: Thanks. That's really good news for a human being, like we all have that capability so--exciting
and inspiring.
Travis: I think it's good news because I agree with you, so many people feel like an incredible
entrepreneur or people that are incredibly good at things, well they're special, they have a special gene
or they have a special something, and they just come out that way. But for me, one of the key
ingredients I feel like is tenacity, just sticking in there and continuing to drive forward on a very focused
point.
Robert: Well, I would agree with you, very much so, its tenacity, persistence, whatever word you want
to put on there, and that's sort of a common trait of all of these great, powerful, masterful people that I
profile in the book. But I ask the question what makes a person tenacious, what makes them persistent,
because that's the key, and the answer I find which is the starting point of the book Mastery, is that you
have to launch yourself on a career path that meshes with something personal and emotional. You
have to be excited about what you're doing, about what you're going to be discovering or creating or
building. That allows you to be incredibly tenacious and persistent because you feel the necessity to do
what you have to. If you're in a career, if you choose to be a lawyer and it's really not what you're meant
to be, no amount of tenacity is going to save you because in the end you're going to burn yourself out,
you're going to tune out, you're not going to be able to have the requisite energy. So, Thomas Edison
succeeded because of his tenacity, no doubt, but he had that because he pursued single-mindedly the
things that made him so excited intellectually.
Travis: Right. And I come from a very non-academic background, I have no formal education and I was
actually a terrible student, but there was a turning point for me, I've read, the very first book, I'd never
completed an entire book until I was 21, I was that terrible of a young man that I just wouldn't follow
directions, wouldn't do as I was told and a lot of that was me just being strong-headed and
independent.

Robert: Right.
Travis: But something--a switch turned on for me once I stumble onto learning how to learn and be
successful at something. A light turned on and I realized I can point this at anything that I want. And
that's exactly what happened, exactly what you said is I realized I can get whatever I want based on
this, taking that approach.
Robert: Yes. I go heavily into neuroscience in this new book and we know for a fact that there's a
difference between what we can learn when we focus very deeply. When we focus, we can learn at 10
times the rate of when we are not focusing at all. If you want to learn French and you're in France and
you want to meet this French woman, you're so motivated to learn the language, you're there, you're
going to absorb the language deeply, you're paying deep attention. If you're sitting in a classroom at
school, being forced at French and it doesn't connect you in any way, you're never going to learn, you'll
learn at one-tenth, one-twentieth the rate. And so a lot of people who don't do well at school, it's not
that they're stupid or it's not that they have a lower IQ, it's just they're not finding that subject that
makes them focus so deeply and they're not maximizing that strength of the human brain. And so it's
not a question of your IQ, it's a question of what is that field that is going to make you learn the fastest,
and it doesn't have to be anything academic, it could be sports, it could be building something with your
hands. Whatever it is, it has to be something that engages all of your energy.
Travis: Now, you said with the new book, you're not talking about mastery, you're talking about another
one you're working on, is that right?
Robert: My new book, yeah.
Travis: Okay. What topic is it on?
Robert: Well, it's an expansion of chapter 4 in Mastery, which is the chapter on social intelligence. And
why I put a chapter on social intelligence in the book on Mastery is I wanted to make it clear to the
reader that it's not just a question of mastering some technical field, being brilliant at computers, or
business, or whatever, that's not enough. That we are social animals, we exist and are dependent on
the group that we work with and cooperation, etc. And so you have to have high level or at least a good
degree of social skills in order to be able to master your field. If you're technically proficient, but you're
bad at dealing with people, you're going to be getting in your own way constantly and all of your talent
will be neutralized by the political problems you're going to have. And I've noticed that this is a real
problem that a lot of people are particularly having in the world today because we're so virtual, we
spend so many inch of our time online that a lot of people aren't so good at those social skills. And so I
want to give a book out there that's going to really ground you in what I call the Basic Elements of
Human Nature, so that you can have a much better, a deeper understanding of what motivates the
people around you and so you can avoid all of the unnecessary political battles that we deal with.

Sandra: That's good news.
Travis: Yeah, I think that's more important now than it has been. Even more important than it has been
in the past, do you agree with that?
Robert: Yes, I do. I think it's because a lot of people are not--it's been documented in a lot of books
how we don't interact nearly as much with people even to my father's generation as he was a
businessman, a salesman, he was really a very adept, social person, but it's because he spent his
whole life interacting with people, it was his job. And I've noticed that so many people lack the kind of
skills that he had because they're not literally, every day, dealing with the sheer number of interactions
that are necessary for developing the skill. And then we're a culture that is obsessed with technical
skills, but social skills is an art, and it's not technical, and it comes with practice and experience, and it's
subtle. And so these are the sort of themes that I'm going to be bringing out in the book.
Travis: Well, I think it's becoming, and we've talked about this on a couple of other episodes, I feel like
a lot of businesses going back to the 50's and 60's to where people are much more social, obviously
the technologies and everything are evolving, but I think that there's more of a social piece now. I get
that part of our skill set or maybe our brain has shrunk because people sit behind the computer screen
all the time. But the social aspect has become so heavily important in the success of business now.
Online marketing strategies from behind your computer are becoming less and less effective.
Robert: Yes, I agree with you, and there's a lot of things that are actually better now than they were in
the past. And I write in my book, the last book, The 50th Law which I co-wrote with the rapper, 50 Cent,
I have a chapter--because he's a master at marketing--a chapter on knowing your environment from the
inside out. Knowing your customers, your clients, the people, your readers, your audience. Knowing
them as intimately as possible so that you can craft your message, your product with as much
knowledge as possible. And that's something that now we have so many tools for, it's absolutely
incredible, that we can get real time information, interaction with a large numbers of people, is
absolutely astounding so in some ways I agree with you. Things are better and business is even more
dependent than ever on that social element. But on the other hand I do think that some people have
lost touch with what I call a kind of elemental wisdom that I want to sort of remind them about.
Travis: Right. That definitely make sense. Now, when did Mastery come out?
Robert: It came out last November.
Travis: Oh, last November. Okay, and so your last book, I was under the impression that Mastery was
actually your last book, but apparently it's not, huh?
Robert: No, it is my last book.

Travis: Oh it is, okay.
Robert: Prior to that in 2009 I had a book called The 50th Law, The Mastery, it's my last book.
Travis: Okay. Well I have an agenda with the show. My goal is to get everybody that listens to this
show to read your book Mastery because it's been my experience that the main reason most
entrepreneurs are not reaching their full potential was due to a lack of mastery within their business,
beyond the service of the product. Can you speak to that some or can you relate that to the five top
things that you feel like are important with Mastery?
Robert: Yeah, I try and tell people that anything that you're doing in life, your career, think of it as
something that you're building literally with your hands. You could be somebody who works with your
hands but most of us aren't, but you're like building a church, a cathedral, whatever it is. And to be able
to make something that lasts, that resonates with people requires deep amount of skill and practice,
and creating a business is like building a ship or anything, any kind of structure. And if you have no
foundation, if you have no discipline, if you have no skills that you've developed in your early 20's, the
period I call an apprenticeship, you're not going to be able to manage the complexity of running a
business in the 21st Century. Let's be honest, things are harder than they've ever been because you're
doing with not just a competition in your local area or in the United States, it's a globalized world out
there and you're facing incredible amounts of competition, it's ruthless.
So you have to be highly disciplined, your knowledge of your customer, of your rivals, of where the
world is heading, of trends going on, you have to be on top of all that, and that can only come through a
lot of practice and experience and a process I've described. To be a successful entrepreneur, I
describe the apprenticeship for a successful entrepreneur is actually what I call failure. I use Henry
Ford as sort of the icon of that and I show how Henry Ford was an abysmal failure on his first two
attempts at creating an automobile industry in the United States, or for creating his own company. And
nobody really was ever given a second or a third chance to try and start their own automobile company.
He succeeded because he learned so much from his first two failures that on his third effort he made
something so lasting, so powerful that it's still with us today. An entrepreneur has to go to an
apprenticeship, you're not going to come out 21 years old and suddenly strike it rich with some idea.
That happens, and I know there was somebody who's just 18 who sold something, some business,
reasonably it happens. But it's not going to last unless you develop the right kind of skill set, and that's
really what my book is about.
Travis: Yeah, they're the exception not the rule, right.
Robert: I don't even think they're the exception because a lot of times the worst thing that can happen
to somebody is success in their early 20's or not at all...
Sandra: Yeah.

Robert: Because you're not emotionally prepared for it and you've come to believe, "Wow, I've got the
golden touch, I'm King Midas. Anything I do is just brilliant," and you get caught up in the money and
the hype, and you lose contact with actually yourself and your own skills and your brain and learning,
etc.
And so a lot of people who rise too fast, who sells something or create something really powerful in
their early 20's, they flame out because they haven't really built anything solid that they can now use for
launching their second, their third, their fourth, and their fifth company.
Sandra: Robert I have a question for you, talking about people psychology. I know for myself and for
others that I've spoken to that we can be very excited about a business in the beginning and really get it
rolling and even--and I'm very excited about my book right now and I see myself, the emotional
attachment that has me pushing and being persistent and being out there. But I also know in the past
I've been excited about things and that sometimes they just fizzle out like a really great thing. I think
there's something within our brains that it can easily just become a regular thing even though it's life
changing. It's like, "Oh yeah, it's just that." My book is about life after death and helping people through
grief and tapping into their passions and living a great life and I discovered these information years ago
yet it became so regular in my brain that I didn't have that push to share it. Is there anything for us
entrepreneurs that we can kind of maybe rekindle or re-light or somehow get back and touch and
connect with those emotions to keep it going?
Robert: Well, that's a great, fundamental question. I think it really depends on your circumstances.
Entrepreneurs really need to be kind of living in the moment through each challenge, it sort of what
excites you, that's what makes you an entrepreneur. It's the fact that you don't have to work for any
other person and you don't have the boring routines that people have with the 9 to 5 job. And so we
live--I consider myself an entrepreneur. And the way I do it is when I have a new book I'm like starting
off from ground zero, I have an incredible challenge in front of me, I don't think of my reputation as an
author of other books. As if I'm just starting my career, and so I have to work as hard as I can, I've
created a Mount Everest now for myself to climb.
Sandra: Right.
Robert: I described to you my sixth book, and so, I can't simply live a comfortable life and just kind of
ride it quickly. A lot of writers they do that and perhaps a lot of entrepreneurs do that. It depends on if
you're sort of stuck in a business that you started and it's turned into something that no longer kindles
that passion, in that case I would tell you start another business. Get going, become a real
entrepreneur, not somebody who's there managing a company that now has gotten larger than you
ever thought. You got to keep at it; you got to keep the hunger by continually challenging yourself.

The thing that I find exciting that I was looking at in Mastery is when you're a child and you have to
learn a sport or the musical instrument, you know that it's kind of boring in the beginning, it involves
some tedium, some practice and you kind of hate it. And a lot of people at that point turn off and they
stop playing the sport, or chess, or the piano or whatever, but there are other people who push through,
and they discover after about 6 months or so of practice, that it's becoming more fun, and more
exciting, and more challenging because they overcame some of the problems that they had, and
they've developed some skill. And then it becomes more and more and more exciting as you proceed
further and further down the line. And that becomes a pattern for your whole life, you understand that in
the beginning things are going to be a little bit boring, they are going to be a little bit challenging, and
then the excitement comes a year down the road when you've started to learn what the game is about,
and now you have the real skill, and all of your energy is focused into getting better and better and
better at it. It's what I call the cycle of accelerated returns. I wanted people to understand that whenever
you engage in anything that's boring or tedious, that's a challenge for you to rise above it, not to let it
overwhelm you. You have now, keep at it, keep persisting and the fun level, the skill level will come if
you keep practicing.
Travis: Right.
Sandra: That's awesome. Somewhere there's a great quote in that that you have to create.
Travis: I agree, and you know, Robert, one of the things I've found is I learned to become friends with
the pain of growing, evolving and change. What I've noticed is a lot of people fear those or dread those,
and early on I worked with my father and I was really good at something and so he forced me I had to
do it all the time. And I had this realization one day that the only person I was punishing was myself,
because I was so aggravated, and I thought, "Why am I punishing myself?" And then the light turned
on, and that later showed up in the things that I was trying to achieve later in my life in businesses. I've
started four businesses and built them to million dollar levels, from a bootstrap standpoint. And to
answer Sandra's question, and I'd like for you to weigh in on this is, each time I was passionate about it
so the lulls pulled me through--my passion pulled me through the lulls. And I think Sandra's question
was how you get passionate about something you lost passion for, and I don't know that you can, that's
completely up to you. And so for me each and every time, my success was not if, it was when. That's
my thinking. When, when I achieve this.
Robert: How did you personally Travis get over the lulls, was it by starting another business or what
was it, a process that you went through?
Travis: No, I didn't do those simultaneously, they were more linearly, and the lulls were exactly what
you explained, it was the passion. I'm hard to beat because when people are sleeping I'm working.
Robert: Right.

Travis: When people are out doing something on the weekend I'm working. Now I don't want to live like
that all the time but when I have a goal in mind I'm relentless, almost to a fall Robert. I realize as a
young man, I'm excessive no matter what I do whether it's good or bad, so I try to focus on good stuff.
And so it's that passion that pulls me through and just being relentless. And that's really what you set in
Mastery, and even in the point that you're talking about now, right.
Robert: Yeah, if you've lost it somehow, you started something, and it's either one of two things, you're
being a bit of a baby or a child and you have to push past it, and discover the passion by mastering it
and that could be the problem, or it's simply the fact that it's something that just doesn't engage you
really deeply, and it won't engage you even if you persist at it and that's a real problem. And what I
would say then is if you have a true entrepreneur spirit, that is a signal that you now have to create
something new, you're a born builder of things, and you've built something and now the passion is
gone, that means you're a serial entrepreneur. Some people are meant to found a company and then
build it into something and they love it, and that's their life, but if you're finding that that's not you and
that you're tuning out, then that means you're a serial entrepreneur which is totally fine in my book, and
it means you have to assess yourself and probably say, "I got a comfortable lifestyle and it's a problem,
I'm not happy because it's not challenging me. I got to go back and start something new; I need a new
challenge, a new business." You can't get it from just simply persisting and pushing past the barrier.
So it really depends on you and who you are but I think a lot of people fall into that trap where they start
something, it becomes comfortable, it becomes a check, and they lose contact with themselves and
why they started it in the first place and they need to reassess and find some new challenge.
Travis: Right. And that's exactly why I started multiple businesses, and really it's kind of a backwards
way, I discovered is, number one, the person I was 10 years ago is nowhere to be found.
Robert: Uhuh.
Travis: And so, for me I would build a business and then I'd get so tired of the questions and the things
and the repetitiveness that I finally built systems that people could follow so they'd quit asking me.
Robert: Right.
Travis: And now I have a multi-million dollar business that I spend 5 hours a week, which is--if I could
spend less than that I would but the only reason is because I created systems. And just like you said, I
wasn't happy anymore so I've moved on to other things that I was passionate about.
Robert: Yes. And the problem that a lot of people have--and I do a lot of consulting work--is they're not
aware of themselves very much. Now I know that's sort of a strange thing to say but what I mean is
they're not aware of who they are, of what makes them different, of what excites them, of what turns
them off. If you're feeling frustrated by your work, you have to take a step back and analyze why, what

is happening here? Have I created a monster that no longer engages me emotionally or am I being
impatient and I need to overcome myself. But whatever it is, frustration, tedium, boredom is a signal
that you have to pay deep attention to and look at and see what are the root causes of that, and from
there, decide what your action is.
Travis: Yeah, great point. A lot of people have built themselves a--and I think Dean Jackson even
made this point. They made themselves this beautiful, a little jail cell.
Robert: Yeah.
Travis: It's a business, they own it, it's really a job rather than a business and it's well appointed, it has
everything you'd ever want in it but it's still restricting them from the things that they want to do next or
where they want to grow or what they want to become. And so most people are not cognizant of what
they've done, and I believe that's exactly what you're talking about, right.
Robert: Yeah. And in fact it kind of relates to something to me personally and that I've written these
books and I've had the chance to go cultic the main part of my income and also people have come to
me saying, "Let's create a system where you can go out and coach people and all of that," and I could
make a ton of money doing it, but I don't do it because it doesn't excite me, and I like writing. So I've
made the decision, it was very hard because I'm getting a lot of alluring offers from people but I made
the decision that the money isn't worth it in the end. It will turn me on a path that will forever divert me
from what I love, and I have to keep true to myself, which is writing the books. And I think a lot of
people get seduced by the idea of where the money is as oppose to where the actual challenge and
love is. The money will come if you pursue something you love. If you pursue the money you're going to
end up burning yourself out by the time you're in your late 30's and you're going to face a lot of
problems.
Travis: Great point.
Sandra: Robert, in any of your books do you talk about how people can kind of figure out their passions
and what they're excited about?
Robert: Well, most definitely the new book, Mastery, the first chapter is called discover your calling but
what I call the Liar Lies Task, and I have many impractical pointers for looking at yourself and figuring
out what that is. For some people it's clear, and I have examples in history of famous people like an
Einstein or Da Vinci, or whomever, becoming aware when they're 5 or 6 years old of what excites them,
and then they stay true to true to it their whole lives. Most of us don't have that kind of clarity, so I have
many practical tips about looking at yourself, figuring out what you hate. So for instance if you end up
working for a typical entrepreneur scenario is you--at a college, you have to go work for a large
company and you hate it, and you hate the politicking and the inefficiencies, that's a sign of the other
side of what you really love and what you're meant to do which is to be working for yourself. Look at the

things that you hate, that you don't like as a sort of a shadow indication of what it is you're meant to do.
Look at things when you look online and start surfing or you open a newspaper, there are subjects that
draw your attention like a magnet. I know for myself in particular, I open the New York Times and if I
see any articles about our ancient ancestors, about discoveries, about the earliest man, etc. I am so
drawn to articles I don't even know why, I see something that so excites me--everybody has that; you're
just not paying attention to these signals. What are these things that if you read about or hear about or
watch on television, they make you super animated you have to discover more. There are all kinds of
indications around you, signs of things that excite you in this primal way. It doesn't have to be an
intellectual thing, it could be some kind of sport or activity, or musical thing or whatever it is, but there
are science there and in that chapter of my book I'm kind of showing you how you can read these
signs.
Travis: Hey Robert, I also heard another great way to do that is, make a list of the top 5 movies that
are your all-time favorites, and then look deeper into the core of that movie and you'll find more of what
you're passionate about. That's brilliant.
Robert: That's a great idea Travis; I never thought of that, those are sort of the things that I'm talking
about.
Travis: Yeah.
Robert: The things that excite you in a way that you really can't verbalize immediately, there's a sign
that there's something happening there and since new movies play such a large role in our life I think
that's a brilliant suggestion or idea.
Travis: Yeah. And you just go back to the last 20 years, top 5 movies for the last 20 years. Hey, one of
the things that I thought was fascinating in book is how you made the case for mastery in developing
the skill set and in the process of becoming a Mastery without explaining it myself, can you walk us
down that path, can you explain that?
Robert: Well, it really depends-- there's a million different career paths that we all follow but there's
only one human brain that was developed over the course of millions of years. So we can abstract a
process that the brain goes through whether it's scuba diving, chess, building a business, being a
doctor or whatever. And what the means is when you enter a profession of any sort, you're naive, you
have zero knowledge, maybe a little bit of knowledge. You don't understand the rules of the game, the
procedures that people have used for hundreds of years in that particular field. And if you're serious
and you want to be successful, you have to learn to be patient and understand that you have to learn
from other people and not be arrogant, and your role in your apprenticeship, in your first business, in
your first jobs is to observe as much as possible, observe the people around you who are successful,
what are they doing? What makes some people good, some people bad? What are the hidden rules

that people abide by? What are the skill sets that are important? Entering a world, it's a skill-based
economy and what I mean by that is people who have real definite skills are going to be at a premium
10-20 years from now. But not just one set of skills, it's going to be people who have four or five
different, highly developed skills that they can combine in unique ways. What are the skills you can
learn most effectively at this place that you're in right now? Okay, so you learn these skills and skills
have this kind of cycle that when you learn one, it makes you want to learn another one and now you've
learned the process that's involved and the patience that you need. It's easier to learn the next skill. On
and on and on down the line, other things that I talk about in my apprenticeship chapter, one other thing
that I talk about is the importance of finding a mentor. The reason is, is that we humans are designed
from learning well from watching other people do things, that's how our brains evolved over millions of
years, watching somebody else carve a rock, not talking to us because this happened before language
is ever invented, and then imitating them, we're very adept at following the lead of another person. If
you can find that person who you respect and admire who meshes, you could say, 10 years from now I
want to be like him or her and you can attach yourself to that person, that's an incredible step in the
apprenticeship process because they can give you real-time feedback, they can tell you what your
weaknesses are, what your strengths are, they can tell you these are mistakes that you need to avoid
that I made, saving you incredible time on and on down the line. These are 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 components
of what I call the apprenticeship phase, you put them all together, and you emerge 10 years, 8 years, 7
years, whatever it takes, from that phase as someone with a combination of skills. You know how to
work with other people, you've absorbed the rules and procedures in your field and you've developed
real skills, now you're ready to launch yourself on a whole other level, which I then call the creative
phase, which then leads to Mastery.
Travis: You know it's such a--when I look back and I connect the dots on my life, all of that makes
crystal clear, absolute sense for me. I had went through a phase of learning construction and work in
many years with my father, and I had learned that very quickly I could become extremely good at
something, and then I get tired of it, and then I went and learned sales, and then I got tired of that, and I
went and learned customer service and got very good and get tired of that. And then when I started my
first business I had incredible success.
Robert: Uhuh. That's fantastic, yeah.
Travis: Why? Because, well, I become incredibly good at construction, incredibly good at sales,
incredibly good at customer service, and all of those skills were there at my fingertips, and they were
just--they had become--just a natural part of my being, I was so good at them, right.
Robert: That's a great story Travis and it lines with so much what I write about and it actually happens
my story and that I wanted to write and the kinds of writing that I had I didn't like, I was frustrated I was
bored with, and I tried many different kinds. And then finally--but during that time when I was frustrated
just like you, I was developing real skills, I learned how to work on a deadline, how to write short and

snappy paragraphs, how to be professional, and I learned how to make things dramatic, etc., and I
learned researching.
So when came time for me to do what I was really meant to do, I had all of these skills. And so what the
lesson from both you and I is we didn't give up, we didn't get frustrated to the point where we said,
"God, I'm just a loser, I'm just going to drink and do whatever." We kept searching for what the right
thing was and then when it happened we were able to exploit it because we had all of the skill.
Sandra: Well, that's really good news, for me I'm just hearing because I felt like I've made the series of
failures. But it's just me being a serial entrepreneur, nothing wrong, and I think for all of us, even our
listener, some of us could be in places where--maybe not being exactly where we want to be and
looking back and all--maybe I shouldn't have taken this career path but what good news that everything
that we've done so far can be used for--once we tap in to that passion for the next thing. So really good
news.
Travis: Yeah, it's a consolidation of all those skill sets.
Robert: Yeah, and the one thing I want to make clear is that it's not--my books are always practical and
I'm a very practical person though it's not like you're in your 30's or 40's and you decide suddenly you
need a career change to be an entrepreneur and you drop everything and you start some business, or
you become a rock star or whatever. You always have to build on what you have skill in, even if it
wasn't the right thing for you. And I met a woman; this is sort of the paradigm that I explain to people. I
met a woman who interviewed me for her website. She started off as a lawyer, this is a very common
scenario, and it wasn't what she was meant to do. She went in to it for the wrong reasons, which a lot of
people do because of the money. And she realized that she wanted to be a writer but she was very
smart about it and what she did was she quit her law job and she started writing as a legal journalist.
And now she could develop her writing skills in a field, in an area where she had incredible experience,
which was law. And now building her career as a legal journalist she was then able to expand that to
journalism in general then into getting her own show that really has nothing to do with legal matters
anymore. And now she's going to be writing a novel that is basically a courtroom novel. So she
managed to find her way to the correct path, which was to be a writer by building on the skills that she
had developed as a lawyer. So that's what you want to do, you want to see everything that you've done
in life, not as some mistake that was a waste of time. There's nothing that was a waste of time, you will
learn something, you develop some skill and you want to exploit that and whatever it is, that's the
venture that you were meant to do.
Travis: Yeah, great point. Like for me when I had those three skills together, if I would have gone in
something other than home improvements or construction there would have been another learning
curve...

Robert: Exactly.
Travis: That I would've had to endure to have that level of acumen and so I just consolidated those
three skill sets.
Robert: That's right.
Travis: And then ten years down the road, this no longer was interesting to me and so I move on to the
next thing and the next thing and so... So, your book was like, "Wow, I get this guy on a deep level,"
and not only does the dots easily connect but you go deep into the strategy or the deeper reasons of
why. And then you draw parallels of some of the most brilliant people in time. I've come to a conclusion,
and I'd love your thought on this, I've come to a conclusion that--and every time I evolve my level of
thinking I view it as going another level down. I get to progress to the next level down, and so what I
mean by that is I may be trying to solve a problem until I dial it in, do some trial and errors, testing,
figure it out, I really don't get to move to that--go to the next level down until I get absolutely clear and
have accurate thinking. And then I progress to that next level, and that's how I've compounded
knowledge, and skill, and wisdom, and all those other things. Do you view it in the similar light? That's
probably a very abstract way of explaining what I'm trying to say but...
Robert: Well, it's interesting, I think I follow you. The movement down would be sort of grounding
yourself in what's real and what's the reality. You sort of start off with a kind of airy, intellectual idea of
what something is, and then as you experience it and practice it and learn what's really happening, you
kind of getting your mind deeper, and deeper, and deeper into what's really going on into the heart of it
and that's sort of like your downward movement into the roots of what something is. That's a very
interesting metaphor. The metaphor I use and it's similar to yours, is knowing something from the inside
out. So at first glance, this is just a metaphor, I could choose many. When you start playing the piano,
it's just a bunch of black and white keys and it's kind of intimidating. And as you practice it, suddenly it
becomes so familiar to you that actually that keyboard is inside your body, you know have the feel for it.
It's at your fingertips, it's inside of you, you've internalized it.
I interviewed one of the contemporary masters is Freddy Roach, he's the greatest boxing trainer of our
era, and I consider him an incredible master. He said by after so many years of boxing as a
professional and then as a trainer, he knows every square inch of the boxing ring inside his head. You
could blindfold him; he would know exactly where he was to the centimeter. He's internalized it, it's now
inside of him, it's part of his nervous system. That's what happens when you master something, you
end up having this sort of feel for it. It moved to the inside or deeper down, however you want to explain
it.
Travis: Yeah, and it's separating yourself from thoughts of what you want it to be...
Robert: Right.

Travis: ..to accurate thoughts because we as human beings are designed to overestimate our skill set,
our abilities, our perception, all of these other things and really we have to separate ourselves from the
problem and be analytical. And so, I guess going inside myself is getting to know that ring, every inch of
it, every ugly aspect of it, every pre-aspect of it, it doesn't matter. As long as it's accurate thought and it
gets me to that next level because I've made the mistake as a younger man of wanting things, XYZ to
be the answer, and so since I went in with a pre-determined set of answers I couldn't get out of my own
way.
Robert: Right. Yeah, I see what you said and I think I really can't add anything to it, it's very applies,
based on your very valuable experience. I describe it as getting closer to the reality, where you
knowledge you have or what's really happening in your business or with the people around you, the
better able you are to making intelligent choices. I discussed in my, book I wrote, my version of the Art
of War but I also discuss it in Mastery, is the great German general Erwin Rommel. He seemed to have
a feel for warfare, he seemed to know in the desserts of North Africa exactly where the enemy would
appear. Well he had that power because he knew every aspect of the battle, he knew how to take a
tank apart, he was a great mechanic, he knew every one of his soldiers and the moral, he understood
the enemy and the psychology of their generals, he flew over the dessert and knew every square inch
of the dessert and the topology. He had so much more knowledge and information of the actual
dynamics of the battles going on there than any other general, that he was able to make these superior
decisions that almost make him seem like he had occult powers, but it simply come from the fact that
he had a better grasp of reality. So that's sort of maybe what you're talking about.
Travis: Yeah, exactly. Hey, let me ask you, as far as the cover of your book. I've got--and this is going
to be a crazy question, okay.
Robert: It sounds like one, yeah, but go ahead.
Sandra: It's crazy.
Travis: Knowing your research in relation to just brilliant people, I can't help but wonder the sign on
your book, the V. Does that have a hidden meaning?
Robert: Well, it's sort of an M if you look at it, which is the M for Mastery.
Travis: Okay.
Robert: I haven't really--the V would have to cut out the rest of the cover and look at just that. Some
people have had their own interpretations of it, which is why I think it works. Some people see it as a
mountain, 2 peaks that you have to climb up and then climb up another one. Other people see it as the
M for Mastery, other people say it looks like a Backgammon board, like kind of like a game that you
have to master. So whatever you want to see and it is good but what would the V stand for?

Travis: Well...
Sandra: Victory.
Travis: No, I guess that's testament to my weird way of thinking. I didn't even see the M, all I saw was
the V, I know that you've done some extensive due diligence on Da Vinci and some of those other guys
and of course, there's a thought process behind the Holy Grail of Da Vinci and all of those other things,
and so I was just wondering if there was some type of esoteric meaning or...
Robert: Well, maybe I should just say that yes, that's what the V is for...
Sandra: Yeah.
Robert: ..let's just leave it at that. And unconsciously that's what we intended but consciously we didn't,
that's all I can say.
Travis: Too funny. So, we've talked about so many, such a wide variety of things. So can you
summarize what you feel like the five top things are that are preventing most people from achieving a
high level of mastery in their business?
Robert: Well, it's pretty much the things that we've talked about. I would say that you're not going to--
mastery absolutely depends on the level of focus and energy that you've put in to it, and you're not
going to have that unless it engages with you in some deep, emotional, personal way. So, if that's not
happening, if you don't feel like you're mastering it, you're not progressing, you need to take a step
back and assess what's really going on and it's because you're not engaging with this deeply enough.
And so that's probably the main, single impediment that I could--if you ask me for every single failure
around the world particularly in business I could probably trace that to that. But it's related to that, would
be a basic lack of patience. We live in a shortcuts culture, everybody wants books about a 4-hour week
and you can learn this in this amount of time and take this drug and you'll be smart, etc. And the point I
try and make is the brain is not designed in it for that, it's designed for learning something slowly over
time, over a process, and that's how anything is retained in our short or long term memory, if you simply
see an image for a millisecond and then it disappears you don't retain it. But if you see it again and
again and again and again, you retain it, if you develop a habit and you practice at something it stays
with you. The second major impediment that people have is they're impatience, they want things too
quickly. Related to that is, I don't know if I'm going to get to five, I'm trying. Like you did to that is your
notions of pleasure and pain. It's probably one of the most elemental laws of human psychology that if
something is painful, too painful, you're not going to do it, and if something seems pleasurable you're
drawn to trying it. But you have to realign what you find as pleasurable and painful if you want to
become a master at something.

So you want to get to the point where playing a video game or seeing some dumb movie gives you an
instant pleasure but it's actually painful because it makes you stupid, it wastes your time. Taking your
time to learn something like playing chess, after a year or two becomes immensely pleasurable as you
overcome your own weaknesses, as you see yourself progressing. But it involves a lot of immediate
pain to get to that point. You want to realign your notions of pain and pleasure. Real pleasure comes
from building something over several years and having the tremendous sense of accomplishment and
the power that that will bring you.
Travis: Right.
Robert: I don't know if I have any more of this...
Travis: Well, those are three very powerful points so we... I didn't mean to throw you a curve there
but...
Robert: I mean, the other thing I would say is that my book is all about reaching a level of creativity,
that's like the end game, creativity and mastery, people who are highly creative are irreplaceable, are
continually in demand; it's the best position to be in, in any kind of career situation. People like to think
that you were born that way, that a Steve Jobs was born creative, that an Einstein is just that way, and
actually creativity is a function of how much knowledge you have, how much experience and practice.
And so, if you want to get to that point, you have to put in the 10,000 hours. The 10,000 hours is a very
real thing, it comes from a very real study that we work on and so the good news is that you have the
potential for incredible creative energy for creating a business that no one else has created, for making
a discovery that no one else thought of before. And it comes through the years of practice and
experience that you have. So instead of giving up and trying something different, if you push through
and you keep creating businesses and developing skills like you did Travis, will reach a point where you
start becoming very creative with it. So I guess those are my four.
Travis: Yeah, and what you're talking about is the modern version of a mash-up. You know, taking two
or three good things and combining them together and getting really creative with it.
Robert: Yup, that's exactly right.
Travis: Hey Sandra, jump in, I've been dominating this, sorry.
Sandra: No, I've been taking massive notes, I'm excited, I'm inspired, things about my own life are
making sense, I feel like I'm right on track, it's all good. I'm thinking now about TV shows and things that
get me inspired and excited and why... So I just mapped on this whole conversation into my life so I'm
excited about reading your books, I have to say, and just wonderful. So, I don't have any questions to
ask Travis, keep on going.

Travis: We're both big note takers because this show is much for us as it is for anybody else, and I've
actually gotten in trouble for typing notes out during the interview because...
Sandra: Just like me with pen and paper.
Travis: So I've had to resort to paper.
Robert: Taking notes is a very important skill. I actually talk about that in one of the chapters in the
apprenticeship phase. When you actually listen to something and you put it down on paper and you
take notes, or you read a book and you take notes on what you read, you're actually inscribing it deeper
and deeper into your short and long-term memory. You're giving yourself a richer soil of information and
knowledge. If you just hear what somebody says, or read a book but you don't take the time to actually
think about it and write it down, it'll just probably pass through you. So it's a very powerful learning
device, is to take notes, and lot of very powerful, masterful people use that so I applaud you on that.
Travis: Yeah, exactly. I've tried to use as many modalities as possible; my books are not useable for
anybody else once I've done with them because I'll dog-ear them, highlights them.
Robert: ..I'm that way too. Yeah, okay.
Travis: Hey, if you had to start all over today, what would you do to get back to where you are the
fastest, what would you do first?
Robert: Well, it's a great question, and I think it would be difficult, it'd be much harder than the path that
I took because we live in a different world and the book publishing world is shrinking, I wouldn't have
gotten as nice and advanced since I got my first time around. So I would probably had to evolve a
different strategy which would have to do with maybe creating a book that I would self-publish and then
spread it out on the internet and make a name for myself that way and kind of go a guerrilla marketing
strategy. My books have always get very little mainstream press, it's all mostly word of mouth and
internet interviews like with yourself, but I don't get like the big Good Morning America, whatever TV
shows.
So I like the guerrilla aspect where you're able to reach people and has a viral effect. If I were starting
out now, I'd have to--I would write books, I wouldn't go in any other line of work but I would take
advantage of that incredible tool that now exists on the internet. One of the main lessons, and maybe
this would be number five of the thing that I left out earlier, is you have to learn to build things well. A lot
of people think that marketing is everything and it's not true. If you make something well, if you make
something that you put a lot of time in and a lot of skill, now you have something that you can actually
market, but a lot of people miss that. They start off with a shoddy product, and they think that by
marketing it they can sell it to people. They write a half-good book and then they try and really sell the
hell out of it. I tell people make what you're doing as high quality as possible so that when it comes to

the marketing part of it you really have something real and substantial that you can sell to people that
you're proud of, and eventually it'll resonate. So I would write a book now with as much care and quality
that I put into it in the 48 Laws of Power, but I would probably maybe try to self-publish it and take
advantage of all of the incredible viral effects that you can create now.
Travis: Excellent advice. Hey, we're running short on time or we're getting close should I say. So are
you ready for the lightning round Robert?
Robert: I don't know what it is but I guess I'm ready, yeah.
Travis: Well, yeah, that's the whole idea. We don't want you to be ready or too ready.
Robert: Okay.
Travis: So what book or program made an impact on you related to business that you'd recommend?
Robert: Well, my business is writing, so it's a little different for me. And I would say that the book that
had the biggest impact on my writing career was Machiavelli, The Prince, but also all of his books. That
was sort of the inspiration for the 48 Laws of Power. A lot of people use Machiavelli for business in any
as well, but what I loved about him is that he's an--what I call a radical realist, he looks at what's
happening in the world and what really motivates people and he analyzes it as a objectively as
possible, and wants to reveal the kind of things that other people don't want to write about, what's
happening behind the scenes. He was sort of the inspiration for me to write the 48 Laws probably the
way I did and it's sort of a mentality that I carry to every venture that I do.
Travis: I like it; it's kind of the psychology behind things, right.
Robert: Yeah. Exactly.
Travis: What's one of your favorite tools or pieces of technology that you've recently discovered for you
that you'd recommend to other business owners?
Robert: I'm afraid Travis I'm going to have to disappoint you on that because I don't really--I'm a heavy
internet user but I don't have any recent discoveries. I'm a slow person, in other words I'm more into
reading books and analyzing and reading the newspaper, thinking about things.
Travis: There's no disappointment, this is a totally organic thing. We have you on the show because
you're you.
Robert: Yeah. I wish I had something to say to that but because I'm in my 50's, I have a different
pattern to my life, which is more geared towards books. There's some websites I love but I don't have
some new discovery.

Travis: Well, what's your fave..?
Robert: I feel like I've disappointed you.
Travis: No, not at all. What's your favorite website?
Robert: One of the people I love is Paul Graham, he's one of the masters that I've highlighted in here,
he has the hacker news which always has some great things about what's going on in Silicon Valley,
and on another level I'm a sports junky so there are lot of websites out there about football or
basketball, my two favorite sports. There's nothing kind of noble or masterful about that. You know.
Travis: It is what it is, you're human.
Robert: Yeah.
Travis: So what famous quote would best summarize you belief or your attitude in business?
Robert: I don't know if I'm going to quote it exactly but it's a quote of Marcus Aurelius, I don't know if
your listeners are familiar with him, he was a great--the movie Gladiator was sort of based on him, he's
a great philosopher king in ancient Rome and a stoic. He's quote, well actually I have it here, hold on
one second. Here okay, got to find the page give me two seconds. All right, here it is, oh I opened right
to it. "Our inward power when it obeys nature reacts to events by accommodating itself to what it faces,
to what is possible. It needs no specific material, it pursues its own aims as circumstances allow. It
turns obstacles into fuel, as a fire overwhelms what would've quenched a lamb. What's thrown on top of
the conflagration is absorbed, consumed by it, and makes it burn still higher." Now, what that quote
means is, for a real thinker, philosopher, entrepreneur, there are no obstacles in like, everything that
gets in your path is actually a lesson, something to learn. So it's like fuel that you will consume with
your fire, and that you see nothing is stopping you. So if there's somebody who's bothering you, or you
have a bad boss, you're learning from that person what you hate. You're learning from that person what
you hate. You're learning how to handle difficult people, a life-long skill. If you're business is failing,
you're learning why you disconnected from the public, how you can build something better. I you had
the mentality that everything is fuel to your fire, even the bad things, there's just nothing that's going to
stop you, it's just the best overall, life lust, I found and I've and I've looked into a lot of different
philosophies so that'd be my quote.
Travis: Wow that completely resonates with me because that's a way that I've always viewed things.
Early on when I was a young man I realized that when I let things frustrate me, I was only torturing
myself and when I was in business I just come to view every obstacle as just more wood for the fire. I'm
going to ramp this thing up and what I became was someone very different in the process, and wow,
that's profound. And who is that from?

Robert: Marcus Aurelius, he's a second century, I believe, Roman philosopher who was also emperor
of Rome, and he wrote his meditation, which is very famous book on stoic philosophy.
Travis: Oh wow, I'm going to have to get that and read it.
Robert: Oh, you'll love it. Marcus Aurelius, it's called Meditations.
Travis: Excellent. Robert you're a genius, I've thoroughly enjoyed spending time with you. I could
spend hours and hours talking with you on so many levels; I thank you so much for spending time with
us.
Robert: No, I really enjoyed it and it was great to hear your story because your own personal story
really matches with what I write about in the book so I really enjoyed the conversation.
Travis: Yeah. Sandra?
Sandra: Yeah, just to close I thank you also, and just to you, thanks. And to our listener, like I'm left
with right now the fact that I've been very hard on myself about what I should've done, I shouldn't have
done, and that's all a time waster, the important thing is, is everything I've done and you've done up to
this point is perfect to really learn the lessons and what we've gotten out of it and look for our own
passions now to just keep us fuelled and what our future endeavours are. So Robert, thank you for that
clarity, and I just feel like it's all good news, like where I am is perfect, where we all our is perfect. And
what's next, so I'm really excited to read your book Mastery and then your book you're working on now
and to keep in touch with you so thanks.
Robert: Oh, well thank you very much, it's great.
Travis: Hey Robert can you hangout for a couple more minutes?
Robert: Sure.
Travis: Excellent. So listen, I want to remind you guys that you can go to the show notes, you'll find all
the links to the books and the resources and everything. Hey Robert, what's the best way for our guest
to connect with you?
Robert: I do have a Mastery website but the best way to access it is through my other website which is
PowerSeductionAndWar.com, the end is spelled out, so PowerSeductionAndWar.com, that I have links
to all my books and to the related Mastery website and if you need to email me there's also a link there,
so that's probably the best place to go.
End of Interview

Travis: Yeah, so we'll post all of those links and that way everybody can come to you directly. Just go
to DIYOB.com and that's short for what Sandra?
Sandra: Diamonds in Your Own Backyard.
Travis: That's right, don't you forget it. Also while you're there, enter your name and we'll send you the
2013 Business Owner's Guide to a profitable million dollar business. It's a candid behind the scenes
look at what you need to know to grow your business to incredible levels of success. What I tell you in
the guide is critical to your success and no one's really talking about many of these issues either
because it's not in their best interest or they just don't know. In the guide we'll cover the five things that
you should know before hiring anyone to handle your marketing, six common misconceptions that are
costing your business a fortune. The 5 skills that will determine the success of your business over the
next 18 months and lots more great information for taking your business to that next level, all of its free
just for becoming a part of the authentic entrepreneur nation.
Today I want to close the show by reminding you whether you know it or not, no matter where you're at
as an entrepreneur, or in your journey of being an entrepreneur, you're an inspiration to those around
you to go after their dreams too, so keep it up.
My quote for closing the show comes from Benjamin Franklin today, and it reads, "By failing to prepare,
you're preparing to fail." This is Travis Lane Jenkins signing off for now, Sandra?
Sandra: And this is Sandra Champlain signing off and we'll see you on the next one.
Travis: Great episode. We'll see you guys next go around to your incredible success, take care.

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This will be an eye opener for YOU, for several reasons, however some of the most common reasons
are.
As the 'Business Owner' it’s difficult to see the big picture of your own business because you’re in the
middle of a daily management.
And you are too emotionally involved to completely impartial.
This is a common problem for EVERY business owner. It doesn’t matter if you are a one-man army, or
an army of 150, the problem is still the same.
Travis Lane Jenkins
Business Mentor-Turn Around Specialist
Radio Host of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show
“Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs That Grow Your Business"

The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 053 Robert Green

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The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 053 Robert Green