2. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
Interview of Dr Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
by
Michael Fiore
for Textyourexback.com

3. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
MICHAEL FIORE
Hi, this is Michael Fiore, and I’m very, very happy to have on the line
with me here Doctor Fred Luskin from Stanford University. Really
excited to have the doctor on the line with us because he is one of the
world’s foremost experts on the concept of forgiveness and how to
both forgive other people for slights they may or may not have done to
you or your holding onto and how to live forgiveness and the benefits
of doing so. Doctor say hello
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Good afternoon, how are you?
MICHAEL FIORE
Doing very, very well thank you. Now doc, this program “Text Your
Ex Back” is really built around helping people who have lost the person they love in their life and to help them rebuild trust and rebuild a
relationship they had with that person and something I hear again and
again and again when I get emails is people saying “Michael, you
know, I cheated on my girlfriend. It was the most horrible thing, we
broke up, I miss her so much. She can’t forgive me and beyond that I
really can’t forgive myself for what happened. This giant kind of thing
is there. And also situations where somebody breaks up with their
partner because they were cheated on or because of other things, cheating on is kinda the most extreme example and they find “Hey I really
want this person back but I can’t bring myself to forgive them. Can
you just speak for a moment about the power of forgiveness, the power
of grudges and how is that somebody can try to move past such a
slight like that of being cheated on or cheating on someone they love?
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Well you just described the necessity of it. That sometimes you make a
mistake or you screw up and you need to get something back or you
need to move on. Some of the research that we’ve done has shown
that is not only helps you do that kinda stuff but it has some health
benefits. And the simplest, the simplest explanation is that human beings like screw up and make mistakes all the time. And if we didn’t
have a mechanism for dealing with that we’d kill each other. And the
only thing that you have to also remind people is that some issues are
deal breakers. So, you know if your boyfriend cheated on you and for
you, that’s a deal breaker you don’t have to forgive them. If your boyfriend cheated on you and you understand that maybe they made a

4. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
mistake or they were lost or whatever reason or that you have a big
heart your welcome to forgive them. But there’s no have to in this. Its
more do you want to give the person another chance or do you want
the relationship back. If you don’t, don’t let it go. I mean it’s not the
don’t let it go but don’t let them back in. We’ve shown, I mean I’ve
done thousands and thousands with people from all sorts of things that
people can let go of much of the pain, they can’t let necessarily go of it
all. And you know when somebody cheats on you you’re going to live
with a little bit of pain. And the problem is your going to live with a
little bit of pain whether you get rid of the person or get a new person
you’re never going to be quite the same. And so if you don’t forgive
and the person is a keeper then sometimes you make the mistake of
getting rid of somebody that would probably be good to keep around.
MICHAEL FIORE
Hmm. Yeah very, very interesting. Could you talk for a moment
about... You know this is something that actually when I was reading
through your material I just downloaded a few of your books and I’m
going through them now the concept of forgiving yourself. I know
personally a few years ago I was in a really dark place, very depressed
and I kinda figured out after awhile that it was because I was holding a
grudge against myself more than anything else. For kinda stuff I’d
gone through in my childhood and things like that and I think there’s a
lot of folks this and this who have a problem with that. Can you talk
about what advice would you give somebody who is really having a
hard time forgiving themselves for something they may have done or
you know saying hey I was a bad person this relationship I don’t deserve this person back etc.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Well you know there are some very simple things, well first of all if
they did something really bad it’s a good idea to try to make an
amends. Like you know like the 12 step programs and religious systems. If you really screwed up try to make it right. That’s really the
most important advice to give everybody rather than just wallowing in
how bad you feel. Try to do the right thing. So that would be my advice number one. Advice number two is you have to feel some of the
guilt and shame to become a better person, the thing is you don’t want
to wallow in it. So you can’t be afraid of having some bad feelings or
some you know a little bit of disgust at yourself because that’s a natural response to screwing up. The question is how long do you stay.
And it sounds like you stayed too long. Now when you have acknowl-

5. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
edged that you’ve done what you can and you’ve felt bad then there’s
some very simple things you can do. The first is to do some stress
management training when your upset with yourself so you calm your
body down. The second is to figure out a story to talk about yourself
that doesn’t condemn you so much. You’re allowed to make mistakes.
And you can change the story from I’m a total jerk to I‘m somebody
who made a mistake and I’m going to learn from it. You know and
then there’s some other very simple things, you can look for your good
qualities as well not just focus on the bad stuff. And you can challenge
your kind of craziness that you need to be perfect to be lovable. And if
everybody had to be perfect before they were lovable nobody would
be loved.
MICHAEL FIORE
Its very much in line with a lot of what I say to folks about just accepting yourself for being human and accepting the people you’re with for
being human as well. You know We hold folks up to these ridiculous
standards all the time and then get so offended when they don’t meet
them and we do the same things with ourselves.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
I mean cause people are going to be human whether you want them to
or not. That’s the tough thing is that no matter who were in a relationship with at some level they are going to be a pain in the butt. And
you really gotta decide I mean I’ve dealt with so much interpersonal
kind of terrible things. You’ve gotta decide is this particular pain in
the butt somebody you can live with. If they’re not let them go. But if
even with their bad qualities you think you can live with them then it’s
sometimes worth it to give them another chance. The forgiveness just
facilitates it but you don’t want to give another chance endlessly to
people who are going to chronically hurt you. So you know you also
have to keep your brain going
MICHAEL FIORE
So you don’t want to stay in an abusive relationship or just one that
you’re not happy in. I think people can kinda get confused by that
sometimes by saying he has some good things I’m like yeah but he’s a
dick you don’t want to be with him. Right.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
And sometimes its really better to get out. And sometimes its not and
the problem is when we’re all upset about it we don’t have generally
the brain capacity to make the best decisions and that’s the reason why

6. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
I teach forgiveness as often as I do. That Just being upset at somebody
and knowing they did the wrong thing is not the optimal state to decide
whether they should be a keeper or not. You have to calm down before
you can have a wider lens to see more of them to be able to know is
the whole picture one I can deal with. And sometimes the whole picture is and sometimes it isn’t. but you cant just let the one offense, unless its so horrible, you know cloud everything else. And So the smartest thing to do is to quiet down a little bit and then make the kind of
decision that’s going to be best for your future. Not just to pay them
back or not just to say look you cheated on me I’m going to cheat on
you. That’s using like one tenth of your brain you want to use a little
more than that.
MICHAEL FIORE
Great. What do you say to folks that have that feel that feel that need
for revenge. Or I mean I know that a lot of times, whether, I know
cheating is the most extreme example but even just he didn’t take me
out often enough she wasn’t loving enough we didn’t have sex enough
and there’s this feeling of like they don’t deserve my forgiveness. And
a lot of people say I cant give him forgiveness or give her forgiveness
cause they don’t deserve it. And I find they kind of torture themselves
because of that.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Well and the problem is its not whether anybody deserves your forgiveness. Its whether you want to feel better. You know its like its not
its I mean what is deserve your forgiveness mean. They can live fine
without it many of the times but what you want to do is ask yourself is
it skillful in my life, is it helpful to hold on to this resentment. That’s
really what you want to ask, not do they deserve my forgiveness, its is
this gonna be a good deal for me if I keep on feeling this way for the
next two years. And so that way you’re asking about what’s the best,
your best interest, not whether they’re deserving enough. Cause
whether they’re deserving or not is such a subjective question. Probably their mother thinks they’ re deserving you know.
MICHAEL FIORE
So its much more about forgiveness as a personal thing. you’re doing
it, you’re forgiving someone not for them not because they deserve
your forgiveness or to make them feel better but for yourself. Because
By releasing that feeling that need for vengeance that need for hurt

7. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
you’re personally going to be feeing better. You’re personally going to
be able to move on more. Correct?
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Absolutely. Yeah.
MICHAEL FIORE
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
MICHAEL FIORE
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
MICHAEL FIORE
I mean just an important point that people don’t quite get a lot of times
with the forgiveness concept. Is they think its like something you’re
giving to someone else as apposed to something you’re doing for
yourself.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And its just essential that one understands
that again it is for you know it is for my life’s benefit what I do. Its
very, very dicey and kinda silly if you decide if you make your decisions on what’s best or worst for somebody else.
And it almost seems like when you’re holding a grudge against somebody in a lot of ways you’re giving them power over you. You’re basically saying that in order for me to have happiness I need you to do
something. I need you to apologize. I need you to make amends etc.
which is giving away a lot of your personal power.
You got it exactly. That’s the actual way I describe the way people
make big mistakes. Is you’re handing your power over to somebody
who didn’t do right by you. How can you possibly expect to benefit
form that.
Very interesting. So doctor one more major thing there I think is a lot
of folks listening to this are going to be like how do I get the man or
woman of my dreams, the person I was with to forgive me? I mean
a lot of what we’ve talked about and a lot of what I’ve seen from
your material is around engendering forgiveness in yourself. Learning to forgive someone who’s done wrong. And I know you’ve
worked with people who’ve been through horrible, horrible things,
way worse than being dumped or cheated on. But stuff people have
gone through torture and things like that. For somebody who is
seeking forgiveness from a partner or somebody else how do you
start that conversation? Is it possible to wake someone up who’s
holding a big grudge and kinda say hey I’m a person I’m here.

8. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Absolutely, and I’ll tell you why. What you’re getting into then is
the necessity sometimes of a true apology. And you know the true
apology at some level has been studied. I mean it’s not like you can
craft it down to the T. but the true apology is one which the person
hearing it feels is sincere. And what that generally means is the person is taking responsibility for their bad behavior. They are sincerely concerned with how you feel, not just how they feel. Like a
lot of people they say I’m sorry because I’m uncomfortable squirm
around so much. Nobody gives a damn about that apology
MICHAEL FIORE
Or I’m sorry this bothers you. Right is the one you hear all the time
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Exactly, exactly that’s it. That, those kinda things make most peoples back stiffen. But a true apology says you know I see that this is
hurting you it was related to my behavior and I’m sorry my behavior
caused you pain. Then if I can stop the behavior I will and here’s
some of the steps that I’m gonna take. When people do that and then
back that up with action generally people become much more willing
to forgive.
MICHAEL FIORE
So it’s a matter of kind of like you know I think its I tell guys this
basically don’t try to be cool you know. Don’t try to dress it up in
some way. Don’t try to make excuses. But really just kinda say I’m
a dick and take responsibility for it more than anything else. who
are in a long-term relationship why do they cheat?
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
MICHAEL FIORE
That’s exactly it. And take responsibility for the fact that what you
did caused somebody you that loved you hurt and pain and you’re
going to have to feel some discomfort because of that. You can’t
block out the fact that you might have some dues to pay.
And what kind of attitude do you recommend folks have when
they’re paying that dues. Is there kinda like a time limit on how long
you should be paying dues after something’s happened in a relationship that caused that to break up. I’ve seen sometimes people who

9. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
feel like okay something happens I messed up either financially or
sexually or whatever and this man or woman is in the doghouse for
twenty years. Right it comes up in conversation twenty years later.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Of course and twenty years is ridiculous. But you can be in the doghouse for a few weeks. I mean lets say you’re married for ten years
right and somebody finds out that you have had like a five year affair. That’s absolutely devastating. Right I mean that’s like
MICHAEL FIORE
Huge
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Absolutely devastating, huge. So nobody that has a brain or a heart
is going to get over that in two weeks. Nobody. So both parties
have to like ask themselves is it worth it to repair the relationship. Is
the guy whose been having the affair is he willing to maybe be in the
doghouse for six months? You know its like if he’s not then go you
know go on to something else. But the wife also and the husband
has to ask themselves is, am I willing to deal with the experience and
am I willing to pay the price. And you know there’s just no free
lunch in this. There’s no if you screwed up you’re going to suffer
and if you’ve been hurt you’re going to suffer. That’s just part of
being a human being. And what I see is you asked me awhile ago
one of the obstacles is people don’t want to pay the price of being a
human being. You know they want like easy or simple or and
they’re its not always that true even though a sincere apology goes a
long way to minimizing the damage.
MICHAEL FIORE
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
MICHAEL FIORE
But the damage is still there is I think the main thing to learn from that.
Its like you’re not just not like people just forget about things ever
kinda happening. They might forgive you but forgiveness does not
mean forgetting in any kind of way. Right its still there
You know what it actually means? Means remembering things differently, that’s what forgiveness is.

10. Text Your Ex Back Bonus Material - Interview with Dr. Frederic Luskin, Ph.D.
That’s interesting. I liked what you said before about kind of the
story you tell about yourself. Or the story you tell yourself about the
situation. I’m a firm believer that we kind of create our own memories and create our own history.
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
It’s exactly what we do. Entirely.
MICHAEL FIORE
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
MICHAEL FIORE
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
MICHAEL FIORE
DR. FREDERIC LUSKIN
Yeah, well doctor I could pick your brain all day but I know you have
a very limited amount of time for us today. But I just want to thank
you so much for sharing this with us and I think you helped a lot of
people. As far as your material I mean two books of yours that I’m
reading right now that I’m just starting to dig into are Forgive for good
and Forgive for love. And what’s your URL again for your website?
Learningtoforgive.com
Boom. Great I really really appreciate your time I really appreciate
your sharing with us and thank you so much for your insight. We
greatly appreciate it.
I do this all the time. Thank you so much and good luck
Bye bye
Bye bye