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Webinar Wednesday : Student athletic recruitment

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Webinar Wednesday : Student athletic recruitment

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Advising prospective student-athletes sometimes requires our additional support. We know they encounter different timelines and unique procedures that are unlike most of our international students who apply to American universities. This panel of speakers will provide straightforward information to about how to best advise and support prospective student athletes through the recruitment process. We will build our comments around your questions which can be submitted during registration for this webinar.

Advising prospective student-athletes sometimes requires our additional support. We know they encounter different timelines and unique procedures that are unlike most of our international students who apply to American universities. This panel of speakers will provide straightforward information to about how to best advise and support prospective student athletes through the recruitment process. We will build our comments around your questions which can be submitted during registration for this webinar.

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Webinar Wednesday : Student athletic recruitment

  1. 1. OACAC WEBINAR WEDNESDAY Student-Athletic Recruitment Process December 2 2015
  2. 2. Webinar Panelists • NACAC Student Athlete Advisory Committee • JT Thomas, Counselor & Coach, Berkeley California jt.thomas11@yahoo.com • Cory Miller, Counselor, Branksome Hall, Canada (formerly in Brazil, Turkey, Singapore) cmiller@branksome.on.ca • University • Susan Whipple, Assistant Director, Office of International Education, Marquette University, Wisconsin (USA) susan.whipple@marquette.edu • International Counselor • Rosa Moreno-Zutautas, Guidance Counselor, Ridley College, Canada (formerly in Venezuela) rmoreno.counselor@gmail.com
  3. 3. Student-Athletes Men's Basketball Women's Basketball Football Baseball Men's Ice Hockey Men's Soccer High School Student Athletes 540,207 439,550 1,109,278 472,644 36,475 391,839 High School Senior Student Athletes 154,345 125,586 316,937 135,041 10,421 111,954 NCAA Student Athletes 17,008 15,423 66,313 30,365 3,945 21,770 NCAA Freshman Roster Positions 4,859 4,407 18,947 8,676 1,127 6,220 NCAA Senior Student Athletes 3,780 3,427 14,736 6,748 877 4,838 NCAA Student Athletes Drafted 44 32 250 600 33 76 Percent High School to NCAA 3.1% 3.5% 6.0% 6.4% 10.8% 5.6% Percent NCAA to Professional 1.2% 0.9% 1.7% 8.9% 3.8% 1.6% Percent High School to Professional 0.03% 0.03% 0.08% 0.44% 0.32% 0.07% Estimated Probability of Competing in Athletics Beyond the High School Interscholastic Level 12/3/2015
  4. 4. Athletic Scholarship Reality Check • In 2003-04, NCAA institutions gave athletic scholarships amounting to 2% of the 6.4 million high school/youth athletes. • Average NCAA scholarship not including football & basketball is $8,707.00/year. • Average baseball or track & field scholarship is $2000.00/year. • Scholarships must be renewed each year. They are not guaranteed year to year. • Tuition, room & board for NCAA institutions cost between $20,000-$50,000 per year. (The New York Times, March 10, 2008) 12/3/2015
  5. 5. Division I Most expensive, competitive, and time consuming division of the NCAA: •350 institutions with big athletic department budgets (PAC 12, ACC, Big 10 ) •Sizable, world-class athletic facilities •Receive the most media attention •Attract the top athletes •Increased scholarship money available but none for Ivy’s (ex. DI Football is allowed a maximum of 85 fulls) •Toughest eligibility requirements: graduate high school with 16 core courses and test score/GPA determined on a sliding scale. 2016 = “2.3 or Take a Knee.” • Examples: Stanford, Notre Dame, Virginia, Marquette, Santa Clara, UC Davis, Pacific. 12/3/2015
  6. 6. Does the athlete match up? DI UCLA Men’s Water Polo No. Name Ht. Wt. Position Year 15 Grant Zider 6-4 215 Center/RS SO 13 James Palmer 6-5 205 Attacker/RS SO 2 Ted Peck 6-6 230 Center SR 3 Chris Pulido 6-6 190 Defender SO 6 Brad Greiner 6-6 195 Ctr Defender SO 16 Tim Cherry 6-6 220 Ctr Defender FR 14 Logan Powell 6-4 194 Attacker/RS SO
  7. 7. Stanford D1 Women’s Volleyball Height matters! • No. Name Height Position Yr • 1 Lydia Bai 6-2 Outside Hitter FR • 2 Carly Wopat 6-2 Middle Blocker FR • 7 Jessica Walker 6-1 Middle Blocker SO • 10 Alix Klineman 6-4 Outside Hitter SR • 11 Charlotte Brown 6-5 Middle Blocker FR • 12 Stephanie Browne 6-4 Middle Blocker JR • 21 Hayley Spelman 6-6 Outside Hitter SO
  8. 8. Division II Intermediate level as an alternative to the highly competitive DI and the non- scholarship DIII: • 312 full or provisional members • Smaller public schools and many private colleges that often draw more locally and play closer to home. • More limited scholarship opportunities and more partial scholarships that vary from school to school (ex. DII football is allowed 36 scholarships). • Student athletes usual finance their education with a combination of athletic & educational scholarships plus private funds. • Eligibility requirements: graduate high school with 16 core courses, earn a minimum 2.0 GPA, and a combined 820 SAT or sum 68 ACT. • Examples: UC San Diego, Colorado Springs, Lynn, Rollins, Pace, Simon Fraser 12/3/2015
  9. 9. Division III Largest of the three divisions with 444 member institutions that range in size from 500-10,000 students: •Colleges & schools choosing not to offer athletic scholarships. No redshirting athletes. •Small class sizes, regional season play, and the opportunity to play more than one sport in college. •Each campus determines their own eligibility requirements. • Examples: Tufts, Middlebury, Williams, Amherst (NESCAC is competitive DIII league) •Colorado College DIII school – DI Wsoc & MHockey 12/3/2015
  10. 10. NAIA • National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics seeks to fully integrate life, academics, sport and fitness into the higher education environment. • 300 colleges & universities in the US & Canada (College of Bahamas) • More relaxed rules, especially related to transferring • Athletic scholarships • Eligibility Center • 23 National Championships in 13 sports • 50,000 student athletes • Eligibility requirements. Meet two of the three: 18 ACT/860 SAT, 2.0 GPA, or graduate in the top half of class • Examples: UC Merced, Embry-Riddle, Lawrence Tech, SCAD, UBC • Options: community college, club, intramurals, PG 12/3/2015
  11. 11. “Traditional” International Student • “Players” involved: • Student • Parents • Secondary/High School • University • Admissions • Int’l Student Services Office • Independent Counselor
  12. 12. International Student-Athlete
  13. 13. International Student-Athlete • “Players” involved: • Student • Parents • Secondary/High School • University • Admissions Office • Athletics • NCAA/NAIA Compliance Coordinator • International Student Services Office • Taxation Issues • Summer start (full-time available?) • Annual Holiday in SEVIS? • Independent Counselor/Athletic Agent • Coaches • School • University • Independent • Athletic Boosters • NCAA/NAIA • Academic Eligibility – Division I & II (NCAA) • 16 Core Courses • Amateurism Clearinghouse (NCAA) • NAIA Eligibility • Two separate and distinct processes • Admissible to university/not cleared by NCAA/NAIA • Athletic qualifier/not admissible to university
  14. 14. Amateurism Rules • Can the student-athlete play for a professional team in her country? NO • Can the student-athlete accept apparel or equipment from the amateur team he belongs to if they represent that club in competition? YES • Can the student-athlete attend try-outs or practices for a professional team? NO, not allowed to play with professionals. • Is it permissible to accept prize money while competing at club level? YES, as long as prize money does not exceed actual expenses for event. • Can the student-athlete hire a consultant or agent to help navigate the recruitment process? YES, as long as that individual is not paid by university.
  15. 15. Defining “Agent” NCAA • Representative engaged by student- athlete to find contracts /endorsements for financial gain for student-athlete • Something to be avoided • Usually happens while in university University/High School • Representative engaged by family/student (to guide them through the admissions process) • Objective: “best fit” for student • The “norm” in some cultures/countries; Becoming more frequent for student-athletes • Agent’s familiarity with actual rules/procedures NOT guaranteed (NCAA/NAIA/university)…working in best interest of student?
  16. 16. Sample Introductory Letter to University Coach • Dear Coach (put the coaches name)________: • My name is _____ and I will graduate in (2016). I am currently a junior at Branksome Hall in Toronto Canada. I currently play for the _______ club (you can add more info here to highlight your team). I have played high school volleyball for four years, starting as a setter for the last three. I am 5’9” and weigh 145 pounds. I have attended the provincial finals for the past two years and national this year. I was also selected for the National All Star Team this year. As well as continuing my education, I would like to play volleyball at the (DI, DII, DII, NAIA) collegiate level. • Your program especially interests me. I have followed your team’s season on your website, but sadly have never attended a game. School specifics here. (I’m interested in your ‘college’ because of... stuff…make this specific but not too long. Put in something specific about the school or program, a friend that speaks highly of it, or simply congratulate them on a good season or recent win). • I am an IB diploma candidate. My grades average around 4-5 on a 7 point scale. My initial SAT composite score was 1850. I intend to retake it in October. I am interested in pursuing a four-year degree in biology. I also hope to continue playing volleyball on the college level. While I understand that NCAA rules do not allow you to contact me by phone until July 1 before my senior year (this is for DI & DII schools, not DIIIs) or by mail on September 1st of my junior year, I am attaching a resume of my personal, athletic, and academic information. This link will take you to a short video of me in action _______ (optional). • My coach’s name is Mary Jones. Her contact information is (email and phone). She has indicated to me that she would welcome your calls. E-mail is the most reliable way to reach her. • I have included a skills tape and a game tape. My jersey number is #1 in the light-colored uniforms. Also included is a schedule of our 2015-16 volleyball season. Please let me know if there is additional information that my coach or I can provide. • I am interested in, and looking forward to, learning more about ‘school’ and the ‘mascot’ (soccer/softball/LAX). Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you. • Sincerely,
  17. 17. International Student Athletes Must Market Themselves! • Keep your grades up so you have more options. • Create a resume/profile with brief athletic, academic & personal information • Create a cover email letter • Register for the NCAA/NAIA Eligibility Center (by junior year) • Get to know the NCAA/NAIA websites and understand the recruiting rules specific to your sport and division. • Talk to high school coaches/club coaches, trainers to determine best athletic fit. • Search NCAA “Who We Are” to determine which colleges have which sport and division. • Create a big list and MAKE CONTACT!! Email resume/cover letter!! 12/3/2015
  18. 18. NCAA 16 Core Courses – D1 • 16 by Graduation, 10 by end of grade 11 (7 of which must be English, Math or Natural/Physical Science) • -4 years/credits English • -3 years/credits math • -2 years/credits physical science (one credit/year must include a lab) • Additional credits/years: • -1 year/credit of English, math or natural/physical science • -2 years/credits social science • -4 years additional courses (from any area above, foreign language or religion/philosophy) • Courses that do NOT count: Art, Music, Film, Technology, Physical Education
  19. 19. What new school counselors should do ... • Find out about the high school`s athletic history. Which specific sports? Divisions? Tendency for group sports or individual sports? • Make sure you fully navigate the NCAA High School Portal: https://web3.ncaa.org/hsportal/exec/links?linksSubmit=ShowActiveLinks • Find out who has been the expert at this school. Tap into all existing resources. • Meet the local coaches. What is their story? • How do kids get recruited? Listen to what has been effective and the not so good. How proactive have students been in this process? • Find out if your school submits national curriculum or IB or American High School diploma to NCAA. Is there an expectation for you to update courses? Determine your role. • Will you need to get involved with the NCAA High School Portal? What has been done? Do you think there is a need to get a code for the school. Sometimes a workshop to check out Course titles for courses can save a lot of time down the road. • “Make efforts to develop and communicate your counseling style with student athletes. Most miscommunications can be prevented by making sure students, parents and school authorities know what each are responsible for for: Boosting VS hand holding”
  20. 20. Leading Practices: High School Perspective • Start early!  Gauge level of participation (national/international?) If not, discuss long-term rather than short-term goals and alternatives such as NCJAA and club teams Make students aware of NCAA core course requirements (split file evaluations may consider gr9 courses taken at your school or previous one) Fill out questionnaires & be ready to talk to coaches informally in gr10/11 (uni coaches can now officially reach out to prospective student-athletes after September 1st of gr11) Strengthen academic transcript in time for academic “pre-read” (July/August after gr11), coaches may make unofficial verbal offers in summer before gr12 Encourage students to prepare an early gr11 testing calendar so that solid SAT/ACT/TOEFL/IELTS test scores are ready (must have official scores in hand in order to receive official invitation to visit in September gr12)
  21. 21. What should happen early in high school? 9th Grade • GPA sliding chart … new 2017 rules! • What does coach think about this student´s true potential? • Outline all the options: NCAA/NAIA/NCJAA. • Are there any red flags on athletic resume the student is developing? Are they being offered money for playing? • Identify summer camps and competition goals • Outline courses a student-athlete CANNOT SKIP NOR MISS! 10th Grade • Caution in course selection. • Reminder: GPA sliding chart • Discover those majors that given a student´s own skills and time management skills might collide with competitive athletics. • If this student was not at your school last year, pay attention to transcripts for Split File review. • Start the college list early …so that students can start filing in College Athletic Questionnaires and reaching out to Head Coaches and Assistant coaches. • Meet with each athlete and check out recruiting calendars at the universities on their very first college list. •
  22. 22. What should happen later in high school? • 11th Grade • Decision time…which conference level is student aiming at? Help develop realistic expectations. • Is athletic money needed to study or can student make the team yet not get athletic scholarship? • Determine how counselor is expected to become involved. Eg. translating for local coach? Checking athletic rosters and anticipating possibilities? Copied in student communications to college coaches? If so, to what extent? • Familiarize students with creating NCAA account: point out there is space to comment on important educational information. • Discuss potential official visits: Are you expected to help students make up course work missed and prepare for visit? Anticipate the effects of the 72 hour rule. • No one mentions the TOEFL test…should you? This might be a good time to have students sit for this test. • Is it in the best interest of a student to apply Early Decision in the light of a “verbal commitment?” • • • 12th Grade • TRANSLATE: What does the student/athlete understand VS what is the college coach really saying? • The difference between a LIKELY letter and a Letter of INTENT…and the other emails that go around. • TIME FOR YOUR SUPPORT: Final decisions. Best offer.
  23. 23. Words of Wisdom • COUNSELOR FOLLOW UP: That prep talk on the Plan B…or Z… • not what I expected…not the coach I thought he/she would be… • handling employment, internships, rules, payroll and taxes…make the right questions upfront • who is responsible for health emergencies? What mechanism is in place? Criteria • discuss it means to be academically at risk…identify individual signals. • socializing out side of athletics: becoming involved, meeting other people learning to ask for help…before it’s too late…academically, socially, language/cultural challenges…
  24. 24. Advice for Student-Athletes DON’T! Believe everything you hear about scholarships. Verbally commit without a read from the admissions office. Put all of your eggs in one basket. DO! Keep grades up! Cast a big net and stay in contact with many coaches. Have strong back ups. Meet deadlines for transcripts/test scores/transcript release form. Go to your counselor for advice about academic/social fit. Start earlier & work harder at the process than non-athletes. Use the NCAA website, “Who We Are”. Buy the book - The Academic Athlete by Dickson/Laughrea. http://www.dcipress.com 12/3/2015
  25. 25. Top 10 College Coaches Pet Peeves 1. Parents send emails instead of athlete. 2. Parents call instead of athlete. 3. Parents call and ask us to call them back when it’s against the NCAA recruiting rules. 4. Use of recruiting services (some sports). 5. “Game playing” in the process. 6. Sending hours of video or testimonial. 7. Trying to engage us in conversation at tournaments when it’s illegal. 8. Not taking “no” for an honest answer. 9. Sending information on their high school sports only. 10. The myth that everyone gets a full ride or a scholarship. (Information polled from CAL assistant coaches in all sports) 12/3/2015
  26. 26. Top 5 Admissions Counselor Pet Peeves 1. Students and parents don’t always understand that the coaches are not the Admissions Committee. 2. Coaches don’t always understand that they are not the Admissions committee. 3. Parents call/email instead of student. 4. A sports agent or other third party relays information or documents instead of the student and his/her counselor. 5. A student believes that one post-graduate year can erase four years’ performance on the high school transcript.
  27. 27. There are no dumb questions! • What can the counselor do to help? • Where/when/how should we send transcripts? • How long should students’ videos be? • What are blue and white chips? • What’s the difference between a “likely” vs letter “of intent”? • What does NLI mean? • What’s a red shirt? • How much can a PG year help?
  28. 28. Resources for Additional Information • NCAA Mailing Address for International Academic Records: NCAA Eligibility Center International Certification Processing 1802 Alonzo Watford Sr. Drive Indianapolis, IN 46202 • NCAA Eligibility Center (school counselors and students): http://web3.ncaa.org/ECWR2/NCAA_EMS/NCAA.jsp • High School Telephone Line: 877/622-2321 • Students Phone: 877-262-1492 (toll free in the US) • Email: ec-international@ncaa.org • NCAA Publications: https://www.ncaapublications.com/ • NCAA International Standards (free download): https://www.ncaapublications.com/p- 4359-international-standards-2014-2015-guide-to-international-academic-standards-for- athletics-eligibility-updated-july-2014.aspx • NAIA: http://www.playnaia.org/d/international/NAIA_GuideforInternationalStudents.pdf
  29. 29. Resources for Additional Information • FAQ’s and Information for International Student-Athletes: • http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/DIII%20Summary%20of%20NCAA%20Re gulations%202014-15_0.pdf • NCAA International Student-Athletes: • http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/future/international-student-athletes • 2015-16 NCAA Guide for the College Bound Student-Athlete (free PDF download): • http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4354-2015-16-ncaa-guide-for-the-college- bound-student-athlete-sold-as-a-package-of- 25.aspx?CategoryID=0&SectionID=0&ManufacturerID=0&DistributorID=0&GenreI D=0&VectorID=0& • http://www.ncaa.org/amateurism

Notes de l'éditeur

  • Poll audience via show of hands: university; high school (in US…outside US); private counselor; other?
  • JT
  • JT
  • JT
  • JT
  • JT
  • JT
  • JT
  • JT
  • SW
  • Communication, Consistency & Cooperation
    Within the University (Admissions, Athletics, Compliance, Coaching/Recruiting staff, ISSS, Athletic Academic Advisers, Orientation staff, Registrar, etc.)
    With all parties (student, parent, coaches, independent counselor, school)
    Avoid triangular relations – don’t ask agent to relay information; email student and copy agent
    Transparent Process – ensuring same information is shared by all communicators

  • SW
  • Refer to ACAOPU best practices report
  • Susan
  • What is the recruiter’s relationship to the school? Is he or she the head coach, assistant coach, an alumnus, or an admission representative? (Assurances carry different weight depending on who they come from.)
    Keep your education foremost in your mind by asking about academic programs that interest you. A good recruiter is as informed about programs as an admissions person is. Fire away with specific questions about majors and courses in your field.
    At what level does your sport compete? NCAA Division I schools offer athletic scholarships; most Division II schools offer scholarships; no Division III schools offer scholarships.
    What is your record over the last two years?
    How many athletes will graduate in the coming year - what positions? what events?
    Ask for details about athletic scholarships—any strings? Typically, athletic scholarships (or grants, as they are sometimes called) are for one year, renewable at the coach’s discretion. If you get benched, do you start paying your own way from then on?
    How many athletes were kept on scholarship after their eligibility had expired? What is the college’s graduation rate for athletes? Because of heavy demands on their time, some college athletes take five years to graduate. By their final year, they are usually ineligible to play.
    Is tutoring or counseling available? Beware of remarks like, “Don’t worry. We haven’t lost a player yet because of academics,” which could imply that your education will be allowed to suffer before your value to the team will.
    What will happen if you are placed on academic probation? Do you lose part or all of your benefits?
    Ask the coach what he expects of his players: time commitment, behavior, appearance, etc., and decide whether you can work with her or him.
    What is expected of players during the off-season?
    Has drug use been an issue at your school or in your athletic program?
    Most importantly, ask yourself if the school would be right for you even if you weren’t competing in athletics.
     
    QUESTIONS TO ASK OF OTHER PLAYERS AT THE SCHOOL
     
    What does your typical daily schedule look like? In-season? Off-season?
    How rigorous is your travel schedule?
    Approximately how many hours a night do you study?
    How do you like the living arrangements?
    What assistance is available if you have academic problems?
    Were changes made to any promises once you committed/enrolled? Is the program what you expected based on your recruiting experience?
  • Check fastest and slowest times, weight, height, Encourage student to write, send videos
    CC assistant coach who is always looking for people who can help them win
    Call admissions to ask if coach is in fact supporting the app or call coach, Have family honestly talk to club coach
    Help students navigate high pressure tactics from coaches, Sometimes coaches think they have more power than they do, if it sounds too good to be true... probably is
    Gr10 is a good time to begin reaching out, it's like a tennis game, email volley

  • Find out if you need to get involved with the NCAA High School Portal? What has been done? Do you think there is a need to get a code for the school? Sometimes a workshop to check out Course titles for courses can save a lot of time down the road.
    Determine what is the 9th year of education in the previous country attended. Verify initial enrollment in year 9.
    For students earning a U.S. Diploma, the CCTL is eight consecutive semesters from the initial start of year 9.
    Note:  Please be aware that students who initially enroll in year 9 in a country with a different academic calendar year, the CCTL will remain on this calendar
    When crediting is not noted on the transcript, the following policy is applied to core coursework:
    If more than seven courses are studied in the academic school year:
    English, Native Language, and Math are awarded one credit each per year.
    Natural/Physical Science, Social Science, and additional core are awarded 0.5 credits each per year.
    Seven or less courses studied:
    All core courses receive one credit unit each per year.
     Strategically is might make more sense to use local curriculum than IB grades for NCAA DI international students.

  • Quote from Sam Fleishchmann (Hong Kong Internation al School)
  • Determine what is the 9th year of education in the previous country attended. Verify initial enrollment in year 9.
    For students earning a U.S. Diploma, the CCTL is eight consecutive semesters from the initial start of year 9.
    Note:  Please be aware that students who initially enroll in year 9 in a country with a different academic calendar year, the CCTL will remain on this calendar
    When crediting is not noted on the transcript, the following policy is applied to core coursework:
    If more than seven courses are studied in the academic school year:
    English, Native Language, and Math are awarded one credit each per year.
    Natural/Physical Science, Social Science, and additional core are awarded 0.5 credits each per year.
    Seven or less courses studied:
    All core courses receive one credit unit each per year.
     Strategically is might make more sense to use local curriculum than IB grades for NCAA DI international students.

  • Discover those Majors that collide with competitive athletics…health, engineering…check time management skills, priorities…
  • What is NLI? Binding agreement between student and institution, valid for one year (2 semesters or 3 quarters) for DI orDII Who issues it? University. Who signs it? University director of athletics, Student athlete who will enroll the upcoming fall, at least one parent (if student is under age of 21)
    When are the signing dates? Early signing period (one week) Nov 11 -18 2015, Regular signing period April 13 – August 1 2016
    4 ways counselors can help- academic eligibility, athletic talent, advertising support, admissions office guidance
    How can you tell? Lots of emails from coaches, calls counselor for transcript (get permission from family first who might be sensitive about timing, remind them that it's better to know early if it's not going to happen so they can move on)
    Even with accommodations, must demonstrate that they can do work
    "Guaranteed walk on, invited walk on, supported walk on" coach would value having them on the team but not enough to offer official NLI (no $$)
    Can’t pull NLI away if student is hurt, but can revoke scholarship funding - Ask the coaches/NCAA compliance officer “What happens if I (my child) is injured and can’t play for a season/remainder of studies?” (Some universities/colleges will take it away if a student-athlete is injured and can’t play…this directly links to the questions about “best fit” and which institution holds values similar to student and family.)  
    PG year will be considered 50% alongside gr12, not an official promise
    Red shirt – can practice but not play, athlete may not be ready to balance the demands of academic requirements with athletic requirements. Redshirting provides the opportunity, with tutoring, to take some classes and get accustomed to the academic demands. They also may redshirt to gain a year of practice with the team prior to participating in competition. Could also be for physical maturity to happen.
  • You are invited to join us for the next webinar in early January ….

    Whether you’re a new counselor or a veteran, ethics serve as the cornerstone of our profession.  Join us for a panel to discuss the Statement of Principles of Good Practice (SPGP).  Since SPGP changes slightly each year, we want to ensure our membership stays up to date on both policy changes as well as trends in the field.  We will also discuss issues concerning our international membership beyond NACAC’s SPGP.  As with all Webinar Wednesdays, there will be plenty of time for questions and healthy discussion with the panelists. (Andrew Moe et al)

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