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SEEKINGTRANSCENDENCEDemystifying Transmedia for   Game Development      Presented by      RAPHAEL VAN LIEROP (HELM Studio)...
Legal NoticeAll text content © 2012 Raphael van Lierop and Zak Kadison,    unless otherwise credited.  All images are the ...
A Recounting of Events in Order   Introductions   What is IP?   What is Transmedia?   The BizMis-alignment   Anatomy of an...
IntroductionsRaphael van Lierop                  Zak KadisonGame Director                       Film Producer   –   Relic ...
A Love of Storytelling
Why should you care about             storytelling?A fundamental human imperative   – Joseph CampbellHealthy!   – Communit...
Digital storytellingModern technology allows us to tell & sharestories much more efficiently than ever before.–   Computer...
Why should you care about           Transmedia?Transmedia is the form of storytelling native to  our epoch.  It’s the evol...
WHAT IS “IP”?
IP = Creative DNAThe conceptualframework that definesthe creative constraintsof something that iscreated.A set of building...
IP Creation is ArchitecturalAllows for individualcreativity within definedconventions.A process of Ideation,Validation, an...
IP Creation is ArchaeologicalIdentifying anchor elementsand extrapolating the wholefrom those parts.Gradual “unearthing” o...
Sample IPs
IP Creation is…    …a huge topic that encompasses many    elements, and deserves its own talk…BUT, generally it is about:•...
WHAT IS TRANSMEDIA?
Henry Jenkins (MIT) says:
In other words, transmedia is about:Storytelling  Reach  Participation  Promise  Non-Exploitation (Respect)
Early TransmediaCharles Dickens                    20 monthly                  issues, March   88 weekly issues, 1840-    ...
Contemporary Examples
MarvelHuge fan base aware of characters &  universe   After bankruptcy applied transmedia   approach to launch new titles ...
Star WarsFranchise has continued to grow and evolve for more than 30 years   Multiple inter-related storylines   Movies, T...
LOSTShow ran for 6 seasons, 121episodesMultiple inter-related storylinesHuge cast of charactersDeep mysteries to be “unloc...
Halo 4Halo 1 was a runaway success Bungie and MS didn’tfully anticipateBrought people in to help flesh out IPMS created 34...
Why should we care about          Transmedia?Transmedia is the “future” of how stories will  be told and shared. Games hav...
Why Does Participation Matter to              Us?People want to be part of something (community)People want to sharePeople...
SUPERFANS!
Why should Transmedia matter to       game developers??Creative                      Business  Games should be at the     ...
THE BIZ
Games business crash courseDevelopers – Make the gamePublishers – Pay for the game, market & sell the gameLicense-holders ...
Movie business crash courseProducers – Make the movieStudios – Pay for the movie, market & distribute the film and handle ...
Conundrum The way the games business works, we are not well positioned to take our game-centric IP over to Hollywood The w...
MIS-ALIGNMENT
NOTE!!All game revenue figures in this presentation are:      Domestic ONLY      Console ONLY (Do not include PC,      han...
The Licensing Business ModelHistorically, entertainment companies would develop a hitmovie……and then license the creation ...
Blockbuster Movies                Domestic Revenue PotentialAvg.      62                  84         82       35       61 ...
Blockbuster Games                  Domestic Revenue PotentialAvg.        93                    94        94       85      ...
Movies based on Games                Revenue Performance  Game-Based    Movies       29    $28mm                43       3...
Games based on Movies,                  Day and Date                  Revenue PerformanceMovie-Based  Games     54  $24mm ...
IP-based Games, Not Day and Date                  Revenue Performance Licensed            Definition:  Games       License...
REVIEW                           Missed                         Opportunity:                          $325mmBlockbuster Mo...
REVIEW   Missed Opportunity:  $59mm                Movie-Based                  Games                  $14mm              ...
REVIEW                             Day and DateBlockbuster Movies              $14mm  $353mm                              ...
REVIEW                 Question: Why?                 Answer: Quality!                                    Movie-Based     ...
Quality Issues w/ the Current              ModelStories– Always an afterthoughtTalent– Licensees don’t invest in best tale...
How does Transmedia help?Evolves existing licensing-based businessmodel to better accommodate presentmarket realitiesResul...
PROBLEM: Story & Narrative         Because the licensed incarnation is not part of the      original creative plan one of ...
SOLUTION: Story & Narrative“Transmedia Bibles” – Create Story Worlds and Universes in whichmany stories can be told.Allow ...
Talent: Blockbuster Games• Blockbuster  games are made  by “AAA”  developers• Many of these  companies are  household  names
Talent: Licensed Games• Licensees tend to  contract lower-  quality developers• None of these  developers would  be consid...
Talent: Blockbuster Directors• Blockbuster  movies are  made by the  “best” film  directors        James      Christopher ...
Talent: Licensed Film Directors• Licensees tend  to contract  lower-quality  directors            Jan       Christophe   J...
Solutions to Talent IssueMust see game and film as equally vital tosuccessPartner with top-tier talent and empowerthem cre...
Problem: Incompatible TimelinesGame and film development cycles are very different.– Games   • Original games tend to take...
Comparative TimelinesTypical Original IP Game Timeline     Pre-Prod.             Production                     Finaling  ...
Solution: Lead With the Game!                                                                       24-48+                ...
Broken TelephoneCurrently, the creatives on either side are separated bypublishers and studios, creating a dynamic that in...
SOLUTION: Communication    Transmedia Production Studio
ANATOMY OF AN IP DEAL
Structuring an IP deal
BITE-SIZED “BEST PRACTICES”:PREPARING YOUR GAME IP FORTRANSMEDIA
Raw Material  Same building blocks for every IP.   –   Characters   –   Aesthetics   –   Tone   –   Worlds   –   Storyline...
Visual Direction  The aesthetics of your world.  The strongest, most immediate expression of an IP  Becomes a major part o...
Iconic Character Design  Viewer’s strongest connection to the experience (game or  film)  Highly visible, highly brandable...
Setting  The reason for the world’s existence, your audience’s reason to  be there  Informs the tone and mood of your IP  ...
World Rules  Magic, Laws of Physics, Gravity, Politics, etc.  These rules put constraints on the world, add  flavour, and ...
Rule: Zombies React to Noise
Rule: The Force = Good/Evil
Rule: Magic Exists
Rule: If You Die in the Matrix, You Die in the Real World
History &BackstoryDetailed histories add authenticity and continuity to the setting, andmake the promise:                 ...
History &Backstory (cont’d)  But you can also hint at  this stuff and create a  sense of mystery…  Remember the iceberg  p...
Factions (=Conflict) Clear faction relationships set the tone for great conflict that you can use for gameplay& storytelli...
Villains  These become the focal point of your  drama. Heroes are only equal to the  villains they overcome.  In games, vi...
Deep Mythology   Great IPs have a rich mythology   that can support multiple storylines.   This means the same IP can be  ...
RECAP: What Makes an IP      “Transmedia Friendly”?Deep mythologiesMultiple primary characters that are highly fleshed out...
What’s in an IP Bible?A foundational document that documents the framework foryour IP.IP Bible includes:–   Logline–   Fra...
What’s in an IP pitch?A presentation for a development or business partner thatevangelizes the IP values and sells the pot...
Great Transmedia Resources      The Art of Immersion, by Frank Rose
Convergence Culture, by Henry Jenkins
Special ThanksSpecial thanks to Ben Hoyt, creative consultant at  BlacklightTransmedia, for gathering the sales and Metacr...
Thank You! Raphael van Lierop                     Zak KadisonCreative Director, HELM Studio     CEO, BlacklightTransmedia ...
Seeking Transcendence: Demystifying Transmedia for Game Developers
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Seeking Transcendence: Demystifying Transmedia for Game Developers

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[PLEASE REFER TO THE SPEAKER'S NOTES IN THE SLIDES or TRANSCRIPT in the SLIDESHARE VIEWER!] How & why to take a Transmedia approach to creating and nurturing entertainment IP, with a specific focus on video games and film. Presentation given by Raphael van Lierop (HELM Studio) and Zak Kadison (Blacklight Transmedia) at the Montreal International Game Summit, November 2012. | For more information about Raphael: www.linkedin.com/in/rvanlierop | For more information about Zak: www.linkedin.com/in/zakkadison

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Seeking Transcendence: Demystifying Transmedia for Game Developers

  1. 1. SEEKINGTRANSCENDENCEDemystifying Transmedia for Game Development Presented by RAPHAEL VAN LIEROP (HELM Studio) & ZAK KADISON (BlacklightTransmedia) Montreal, November 14th, 2012
  2. 2. Legal NoticeAll text content © 2012 Raphael van Lierop and Zak Kadison, unless otherwise credited. All images are the property of their respective rights holders. We encourage readers to share and distribute these slides. However, we ask that any re-publication of the slide content be attributed.
  3. 3. A Recounting of Events in Order Introductions What is IP? What is Transmedia? The BizMis-alignment Anatomy of an IP Deal Bite-Sized Best Practices for Transmedia IP Development Questions
  4. 4. IntroductionsRaphael van Lierop Zak KadisonGame Director Film Producer – Relic – Radar – Jerry Bruckheimer Films – Ubisoft Montreal – Spyglass Entertainment – Relic – Gold Circle – HELM – Fox Atomic – Unannounced – Blacklight We are storytellers and IP creators!
  5. 5. A Love of Storytelling
  6. 6. Why should you care about storytelling?A fundamental human imperative – Joseph CampbellHealthy! – Community, Mental Faculties, SpiritInterpreting them is an ingrained capability – 6B+ install base!Games are a unique offering – Ask not what story can do for games, but what games can do for story!
  7. 7. Digital storytellingModern technology allows us to tell & sharestories much more efficiently than ever before.– Computers & desktop publishing– On-demand printing– Free distribution (Web)– Social media– Virtual participatory mediaThis is fundamentally changing the way we tellstories.
  8. 8. Why should you care about Transmedia?Transmedia is the form of storytelling native to our epoch. It’s the evolution of where storytelling is going. Games have the potential to be at the heart of all transmedia, due to their unique participatory qualities and highly engaged audiences.
  9. 9. WHAT IS “IP”?
  10. 10. IP = Creative DNAThe conceptualframework that definesthe creative constraintsof something that iscreated.A set of building blocksthat contains all thepotential of yourcreative & what it canbecome.
  11. 11. IP Creation is ArchitecturalAllows for individualcreativity within definedconventions.A process of Ideation,Validation, andExecution.An iterative“construction” projectvs. purely hypotheticalintellectual exercise.
  12. 12. IP Creation is ArchaeologicalIdentifying anchor elementsand extrapolating the wholefrom those parts.Gradual “unearthing” of theIP’s heart and soul over time.Constant challenge andvalidation of beliefs.Must be flexible and changebased on feedback/data.
  13. 13. Sample IPs
  14. 14. IP Creation is… …a huge topic that encompasses many elements, and deserves its own talk…BUT, generally it is about:• Context• Storytelling• Audience Engagement• Community
  15. 15. WHAT IS TRANSMEDIA?
  16. 16. Henry Jenkins (MIT) says:
  17. 17. In other words, transmedia is about:Storytelling Reach Participation Promise Non-Exploitation (Respect)
  18. 18. Early TransmediaCharles Dickens 20 monthly issues, March 88 weekly issues, 1840- 1836 – 1841 October 1837
  19. 19. Contemporary Examples
  20. 20. MarvelHuge fan base aware of characters & universe After bankruptcy applied transmedia approach to launch new titles Self contained yet complimentary stories – Hulk, Iron Man, Captain America, & Thor – Led up to The Avengers
  21. 21. Star WarsFranchise has continued to grow and evolve for more than 30 years Multiple inter-related storylines Movies, TV shows, video games, books, toys, etc. - 6 Movies -130 Video Games - 358 Books Huge cast of characters Deep mythology which was revealed over time Fan community highly engaged and very vocal
  22. 22. LOSTShow ran for 6 seasons, 121episodesMultiple inter-related storylinesHuge cast of charactersDeep mysteries to be “unlocked”Online fan community highlyengaged and “teased” by showcreatorsFan support kept show running foryears (…beyond its logical life,perhaps…)
  23. 23. Halo 4Halo 1 was a runaway success Bungie and MS didn’tfully anticipateBrought people in to help flesh out IPMS created 343 to manage and extend the IPHalo 4 = Campaign + SPARTAN Ops (co-op) +Multiplayer + linear (live-action shorts) – Everything has story!!Halo is a full-on multi-billion$ transmedia empire: – Game – Short-film(s) – Web series (Forward Unto Dawn) – Novels (Fall of Reach integral to worldbuilding!) – Merchandising – Waypoint – Wiki…
  24. 24. Why should we care about Transmedia?Transmedia is the “future” of how stories will be told and shared. Games have special role in this as they are uniquely participatory.
  25. 25. Why Does Participation Matter to Us?People want to be part of something (community)People want to sharePeople want to createPrimary work -> offshoot -> fan-made Becomes an IP ecosystem with a high degree of audience engagement Becomes self-fulfilling • Ex. Fringe
  26. 26. SUPERFANS!
  27. 27. Why should Transmedia matter to game developers??Creative Business Games should be at the Historically, games have forefront of IP creation a single revenue source Hamstrung when shoe- Transmedia approach horned by the constraints means a video game of other media becomes an IP which can drive ancillary revenue Whole generation for and library value whom video games are the primary entertainment form
  28. 28. THE BIZ
  29. 29. Games business crash courseDevelopers – Make the gamePublishers – Pay for the game, market & sell the gameLicense-holders (IP) – Bring an audience; own and protect itIP (creative + audience) is the “real” valueControlled by publisher and/or licensor(Basically must self-fund to have significant control over your own createdIP.)
  30. 30. Movie business crash courseProducers – Make the movieStudios – Pay for the movie, market & distribute the film and handle the ancillary rightsStudio / Financier owns copyright and controls movie and anyancillary not previously exploitedThe overwhelming majority of revenue generated from a movieDOES NOT come from Box OfficeTo have significant control and upside you must bring money or realvalue to the table
  31. 31. Conundrum The way the games business works, we are not well positioned to take our game-centric IP over to Hollywood The way the movie business works, Hollywood IPs are not well positioned to result in successful games Most attempts to do cross-over IP exploitation (game - > film or film -> game) have failed.Why?
  32. 32. MIS-ALIGNMENT
  33. 33. NOTE!!All game revenue figures in this presentation are: Domestic ONLY Console ONLY (Do not include PC, handheld, or mobile platforms) Retail ONLY (Do not include revenue from digital distribution, in-game advertising, downloadable content (DLC))
  34. 34. The Licensing Business ModelHistorically, entertainment companies would develop a hitmovie……and then license the creation of a video game…….or vice versa.The result has consistently been low-quality products that failto achieve their revenue potential.
  35. 35. Blockbuster Movies Domestic Revenue PotentialAvg. 62 84 82 35 61 79 $741mm $533mm $402mm $319mm $318mmAvg. Domestic Box Office : $353mm 65 50 58 70 63 $317mm $309mm $234mm $205mm $171mm
  36. 36. Blockbuster Games Domestic Revenue PotentialAvg. 93 94 94 85 98 91 $614mm $403mm $370mm $347mm $165mm Avg. Domestic Retail: $228mm 93 96 96 94 88 $159mm $69mm $60mm $50mm $47mm
  37. 37. Movies based on Games Revenue Performance Game-Based Movies 29 $28mm 43 30 31 33 35 $66mm $47mm $41mm $40mm $40mmBlockbuster Movies 62$353mm 34 17 15 18 38 $28mm $9mm $5mm $2mm $.5mm
  38. 38. Games based on Movies, Day and Date Revenue PerformanceMovie-Based Games 54 $24mm 60 61 52 42 $17mm $27mm $61mm $33mmBlockbuster Games 93 55 55 53 65 42$228mm $6mm $27mm $20mm $15mm $9mm
  39. 39. IP-based Games, Not Day and Date Revenue Performance Licensed Definition: Games Licensed Games – Based on a licensed property but the game 84 is not connected to a specific movie launch $73mm 77 82 92 $77mm $58mm $82mmMovie-Based Games Definition: Movie-Based Games – Based on the same 58 IP, but linked day & date to a movie launch $14mm 55 53 65 $6mm $20mm $15mm
  40. 40. REVIEW Missed Opportunity: $325mmBlockbuster Movies $353mm Game-Based Movies $28mm
  41. 41. REVIEW Missed Opportunity: $59mm Movie-Based Games $14mm Licensed Games $73mm
  42. 42. REVIEW Day and DateBlockbuster Movies $14mm $353mm Not Day and Date $73mm Game-Based Movies $28mm
  43. 43. REVIEW Question: Why? Answer: Quality! Movie-Based GamesBlockbuster Movies 62 58 Licensed Games 84 Game-Based Movies 29
  44. 44. Quality Issues w/ the Current ModelStories– Always an afterthoughtTalent– Licensees don’t invest in best talentTimelines– Film & game timelines out of syncCommunication– Very little cross-industry knowledge sharing– Little direct access to talent
  45. 45. How does Transmedia help?Evolves existing licensing-based businessmodel to better accommodate presentmarket realitiesResults in higher quality products in allmediaCreates significant opportunities forrevenue growth
  46. 46. PROBLEM: Story & Narrative Because the licensed incarnation is not part of the original creative plan one of two things tend to happen:The game tries to retell The game and film have the story of the film almost nothing to do with each other
  47. 47. SOLUTION: Story & Narrative“Transmedia Bibles” – Create Story Worlds and Universes in whichmany stories can be told.Allow audiences to experience and interact with those worlds inways that complement each other, across all media, including:  Film  Games  Television  Books/Graphic Novels  Social Networking
  48. 48. Talent: Blockbuster Games• Blockbuster games are made by “AAA” developers• Many of these companies are household names
  49. 49. Talent: Licensed Games• Licensees tend to contract lower- quality developers• None of these developers would be considered “AAA”• Many of these developers are no longer even in business Z-Axis
  50. 50. Talent: Blockbuster Directors• Blockbuster movies are made by the “best” film directors James Christopher Michael Michael JohnFavreau Cameron Nolan Bay Bay• Most of these directors are household names Steven Gore Brett Christopher Stephen Spielberg Verbinski Ratner Nolan Sommers
  51. 51. Talent: Licensed Film Directors• Licensees tend to contract lower-quality directors Jan Christophe John Paul Xavier DeBont Gans Moore Anderson Gens• Few of these directors would be considered “AAA” Andrzej Andrzej Uwe Uwe J.F. Bartkowiak Bartkowiak Boll Boll Lawton
  52. 52. Solutions to Talent IssueMust see game and film as equally vital tosuccessPartner with top-tier talent and empowerthem creativelyBring creative teams from respectivedisciplines together to collaborate
  53. 53. Problem: Incompatible TimelinesGame and film development cycles are very different.– Games • Original games tend to take much longer • Unlike film, games cannot be “proven” using a foundational “document” (i.e. script) that is relatively low-cost/low-risk • Progress is less predictable b/c of continuous tech iteration– Film • Developed from script (“story-derived”) • Process, methodology, tools, skills much better established • Progress is more predictable • Success is not guaranteed
  54. 54. Comparative TimelinesTypical Original IP Game Timeline Pre-Prod. Production Finaling 24-48+ Months 6-12 Months 12-18 Months 4-6 MonthsTypical Movie Timeline Pre-Prod. Production Post 10-24+ Months 2-12 Months 2-6 Months 6-12 MonthsMovie-Based Game Timeline Pre-Prod. Production Post 12-18 Months2-3 Months 8-12 Months 2-3 Months TAKE-AWAY: Licensed movie-game production cycle much too short achieve quality.
  55. 55. Solution: Lead With the Game! 24-48+ MonthsTypical Original IP Game Timeline Pre-Prod. Production Finaling 6-12 Months 12-18 Months 4-6 Months Typical Movie Timeline Dev. Pre-Prod. Production Post 2-12 Months 2-6 Months 6-12 Months 10-24+ Months
  56. 56. Broken TelephoneCurrently, the creatives on either side are separated bypublishers and studios, creating a dynamic that inhibits effective collaboration. What we have here is a failure to communicate!
  57. 57. SOLUTION: Communication Transmedia Production Studio
  58. 58. ANATOMY OF AN IP DEAL
  59. 59. Structuring an IP deal
  60. 60. BITE-SIZED “BEST PRACTICES”:PREPARING YOUR GAME IP FORTRANSMEDIA
  61. 61. Raw Material Same building blocks for every IP. – Characters – Aesthetics – Tone – Worlds – Storylines – Themes – Etc.FOR TRANSMEDIA:Some elements translate much better across media: storylines, characters, settings, factions, histories, etc.
  62. 62. Visual Direction The aesthetics of your world. The strongest, most immediate expression of an IP Becomes a major part of the identity of your game, and IPFOR TRANSMEDIA:Highly transferable to film which is also very much a visual medium, so focus on iconic elements that work in both media without watering either down
  63. 63. Iconic Character Design Viewer’s strongest connection to the experience (game or film) Highly visible, highly brandable Adds massive value to the IPFOR TRANSMEDIA: Highly transferable to film and other story-based media. Also, merchandising &cosplay
  64. 64. Setting The reason for the world’s existence, your audience’s reason to be there Informs the tone and mood of your IP Lays the foundation for all other IP elementsFOR TRANSMEDIA: This sets the ground rules for the IP universe, which must be respected across all media!!
  65. 65. World Rules Magic, Laws of Physics, Gravity, Politics, etc. These rules put constraints on the world, add flavour, and can provide great gameplay opportunities. Can be micro (local) or macro (global).FOR TRANSMEDIA: You need these to create a backdrop for interesting action and conflict in your storytelling.
  66. 66. Rule: Zombies React to Noise
  67. 67. Rule: The Force = Good/Evil
  68. 68. Rule: Magic Exists
  69. 69. Rule: If You Die in the Matrix, You Die in the Real World
  70. 70. History &BackstoryDetailed histories add authenticity and continuity to the setting, andmake the promise: “There is more to discover here, if you only take the time…”A rich world history and deep character backstories can providenearly endless opportunities or future IP expansion. – Ex. Mass Effect team did 1 yr of worldbuilding
  71. 71. History &Backstory (cont’d) But you can also hint at this stuff and create a sense of mystery… Remember the iceberg principleFOR TRANSMEDIA: This is one of the best investments to make if you’re preparing your IP for transmedia exploitation.
  72. 72. Factions (=Conflict) Clear faction relationships set the tone for great conflict that you can use for gameplay& storytelling.FOR TRANSMEDIA:These become potential hooks for future IP and story.
  73. 73. Villains These become the focal point of your drama. Heroes are only equal to the villains they overcome. In games, villains make a great “carrot” to pull the player forward. For games, often the best way to infuse character personality into your experience.FOR TRANSMEDIA: Try to develop fully- fledged villains, not just fodder for boss fights.
  74. 74. Deep Mythology Great IPs have a rich mythology that can support multiple storylines. This means the same IP can be extended across multiple media. It also means you have room for sequels and/or content expansion. Especially important for long- running franchises. – 25 yrs. of Metal GearFOR TRANSMEDIA: This is one of the best investments to make if you’re preparing your IP for transmedia exploitation.
  75. 75. RECAP: What Makes an IP “Transmedia Friendly”?Deep mythologiesMultiple primary characters that are highly fleshed outInteresting secondary characters that can support their ownstoriesMultiple narrative threadsClear aesthetics, flavour, and rules in the worldFactional conflict
  76. 76. What’s in an IP Bible?A foundational document that documents the framework foryour IP.IP Bible includes:– Logline– Frame story synopsis (ex. the Rebel Alliance, the Jedi, etc.)– Character bios (for primary and secondary)– Plotlines– Gameplay outline (tailored to game genre)– Aesthetic direction (concept art, mood boards, etc.)– Expansion strategy– Up to 100+ pages long
  77. 77. What’s in an IP pitch?A presentation for a development or business partner thatevangelizes the IP values and sells the potential.Should have: – Pitch Deck • Less than 30 slides – Bible • Story synopsis/synopses • Character backstories • Concept art • Mood reel – Transmedia Strategy – 1-pager – 10-page “look book”
  78. 78. Great Transmedia Resources The Art of Immersion, by Frank Rose
  79. 79. Convergence Culture, by Henry Jenkins
  80. 80. Special ThanksSpecial thanks to Ben Hoyt, creative consultant at BlacklightTransmedia, for gathering the sales and Metacritic data used in this presentation. Special thanks to the MIGS advisory board for inviting us to speak at MIGS_2012. Special thanks to everyone who attended our talk at MIGS_2012, and in particular to the many of you who contacted us afterwards to continue the dialogue about transmedia and games.
  81. 81. Thank You! Raphael van Lierop Zak KadisonCreative Director, HELM Studio CEO, BlacklightTransmedia Email: raphael@helm-studio.com Email: zak@blacklighttransmedia.com Web: www.helm-studio.com Web: www.blacklighttransmedia.com Twitter: @raphlife LinkedIn: LinkedIn:www.linkedin.com/in/rvanlierop www.linkedin.com/in/zakkadison

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